"Devil's Triangle" [KS+][Challenge/Maze][Normal/Very Hard][Large] - TigerNDV

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Hey! Thanks for playing and the bug report! (Which I hadn't fixed yet!)

I'm glad you enjoyed the visuals and design, the temple area was certainly one of my favorite areas to design! (it gets intense in hard mode!)

Your ending will depend on 2 main factors, your pre-ending choices leading up to the ending, and your performance itself during the ending.

**SPOILERS**
Here are some things to consider.
-If you die during a trial you can use ctrl+r to reset and try again (you must successfully complete every trial to qualify for the good/best endings)
-If Randall declines to dine with the Devil, you will get an additional Randall trial, however your ending will not change
-If Janet takes a torch from the Devils below-ground cave, she will have to do a second trial, however it will not affect your ending. (there is a second way to acquire a torch on the island if you explore around!)
-If Janet takes the dagger from the stone alter AND Edward takes the weapon from the dark woods they will be forced to fight and you will be locked from ever getting the "best" ending. This only occurs if both characters take those weapons (the spear in the Volcano does not qualify)
-If Janet does not hide from the devil when he calls out to her in the jungle, either Edward or Randall will die in the ending and you are locked from getting the best ending. You will need to hide from the devil in this cinematic to qualify for the best ending.
-If all 3 characters survive the trials you will get the good ending.
-However to get the best ending you will also need to have taken the wooden carving from the far East beach



Hope this helps, and good luck if you attempt a run to get the best possible ending!
Twist the rules, go where nobody has gone before.

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Offline egomassive

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Thanks for the mini guide there. I decided to make the worst choices on my first play through. I do want to see other outcomes, but it's too lengthy to make every combination of choices. (Although it will go much faster once I know the routes and action orders.)

The vines only didn't appear right when I was able to clear them. I had a similar experience with a rock blockage somewhere else. Only when I approached from the direction where I could clear them did the blockage fail to appear. Otherwise the functionality was there. In short, there's no break in logic, only the graphics.

Edit: I looked into the vine issue with the editor. I don't see anything faulty in your design. I'll need to check the game source. B-bank custom objects are new, so the problem probably lies there.

« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 01:37:09 by egomassive »

That is so odd, I can't for the life of me reproduce that issue... Thanks for playing, and I'm glad it's not breaking anything. So weird...
Twist the rules, go where nobody has gone before.

Movement in relation to the minimap felt disorienting at times, and I think I figured out why.


https://imgur.com/a/2qgpSy0

#1 (Top image): while walking along the west beach, the player's location on the minimap "warps" from the first yellow circle to the second. According to the minimap this is a separate area somewhere south, even though in the overworld the player only walks one screen to the right.

It would be less confusing if the west beach area on the minimap wasn't split into two (half is west below the oceanline somewhere and half is completely under the ocean) - instead should mirror the overworld as one long straight line on the same latitude of the camp.


#2 (Top image): The sunken wilds area could be it's own separate area on the minimap instead of being connected to the rightmost end of west beach, since the player cannot travel between these areas in the overworld.

#3) (Bottom image) The player in the left circle is on the edge of an open beach/lake, while in the right circle the player is underground somewhere in the canopies. It's not intuitive in the overworld that just to the right of this open beach area is a deep underground area. The entire canopy area could be moved on the minimap to the right to show it's a separate area somewhere in the world and not continuously connected to this beach. (Sort of like how the volcano area is completely separate on the minimap)


Maybe there's a functional reason why the screens are organized this way, or the space you can put the screens is limited.

------

#4) I personally think the minimap would be better if each area only had 3 color codes. For example, the minimap of west beach. There are blue, purple, grey, and dark teal colored areas. I'm assuming that the grey areas are caves, but it's not very obvious what the purple and dark teal areas mean, especially without a legend.

Instead, I think each area should only have 3 colors: a unique background color for that area, the color for portals, and the color for mysterious gates. Applying this to west beach, the entire area would be light blue other than the pink teleport screens. This makes it easier when referencing the minimap that this entire area is part of west beach. Any areas on the minimap that are not a shade of green mean that they can only be accessed by a teleport.


« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 20:35:31 by pacifishi »

Most of this stuff I can't really fix, I didn't plan for this level to get as big as it did so I never planned to make each region farther away than they are, I also wasn't planning to give players a map.

I might just disable the map in this level tbh, it's causing a lot of pain and I don't think it's really needed at all.
Twist the rules, go where nobody has gone before.



I might just disable the map in this level tbh, it's causing a lot of pain and I don't think it's really needed at all.

Your call! I think the map in general was really helpful, I'm just giving suggestions that have a very minor or no impact on player experience. I hope it didn't come across as nitpicking or saying it was bad in any way. The level is awesome.


Speaking of which, perhaps this would make the puzzle of progressing through the island to easy, but each question-mark obstacle could be unique to which character can clear them. Obstacles that can only be accessed and cleared by Edward can be illustrated as piles of stones, Janet-only obstacles can be illustrated as vines, etc.


Progress would work the same, as each obstacle can only be accessed by one particular character, but it could give hints (ex. If I see a path blocked by stones, I know that Edward is needed to clear this from the other side).


« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 20:42:48 by pacifishi »

Interesting idea...

However, some blockages can be cleared by multiple characters and figuring out how to solve each one is intentional. But also, even if you know who to use, getting there with that character is sometimes impossible so If a player sees "I need Randall to open this" it's very possible that Randall can't actually get there until another character opens something else so it's a bit of a bait.


I don't think I'll be changing much on this level outside bug fixes, and general cleanup. Unless people are finding progression to be very painful in certain places and which point I will address the specific issues.
Twist the rules, go where nobody has gone before.

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Offline Polana

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I would keep the map.
Thanks for the hints, I'll definitely replay this to get some of the better endings.

Keep in mind even getting a "worse ending" could still reveal unique content specific to those choices such as cutscenes and dialogue so it's not necessarily a bad thing to get a better/worse ending.
Twist the rules, go where nobody has gone before.

Latest version is now published, you down download it from Knyttlevels.com here.
https://knyttlevels.com/levels/TigerNDV%20-%20Devil%27s%20Triangle%20%28V2%29.knytt.bin

I have no plans for any future updates to this level, I hope you enjoy it! Thanks for all the great feedback.
Twist the rules, go where nobody has gone before.

I have played a bit of V2, with what I assume 30% of unlocks / definitive changes in the map until the first encounter (Normal).

The scenery is gorgeous and story installation (with a few typos and no ' for some reason) is great as always coming from big man Tiger.
The gimmick is nice and you can figure out some pathing easily in various way, giving an open world feel.
The change of enemy sprites and encounter is interesting and unusual from casual plays in standard KS(+) levels.

Because of the large nature of the level, the evolution of travelling + shortcuts makes it even better to go back to places and progress further.
It's very useful as some of the pathing does not look obvious for how progress can be made at first.

It's also a very technical and challenging achievement to make such a level, which must involve a high degree of testing to make sure each piece goes along well.
In this case, details can matter a lot and can be easily overlooked.
A very hard maze with story elements would assume that clues on what to do next can be given (un)explicitly, which I guess is also done well here... maybe ?



*This will go a bit further in detail and can contain some slight spoiler on gimmicks / story while staying evasive*



At first it's very intuitive to go through and choose different options for progression. If you are lost you can use some help in the pathing.
However, after the first deer encounter, what to do next is highly unclear. I really have no clue even with the different routes.

It may be a bug because even after unlocking areas I only have access to the first area map routes to help out.
Everything was pretty much done in the shown routes, even after backing up my save and doing some extra exploration for 30 minutes - 1 hour.

This is where the maze + story aspect might be conflicting with each other.

Shouldn't there be extra maps, at least after unlocking the fast travels in those areas ? Like an extra map item nearby that point ?
Something that's also bothering are the "?" on them. Yes, they point out requirements for a few routes, but once they have been unlocked, shouldn't they disappear from the map ?

We do have route progression after a few unlocks, but things that are related to past events, mostly the shortcut unlocks, don't need to exist anymore.
Yet there are missing things on the other hand. The story has implications with a few of the locations and should be point of interest for the characters.

Shouldn't there be markings for the (mysterious) points of interest to better remember their locations from a story standpoint ?
Especially when you can't do progress and have to go back later for those ?

It could be done on the KS+ map feature of course.
Even though you usually only have access to part of it and would probably render visibility much more difficult.
I guess it would be confusing if you can't add something to mark what are the colors corresponding to in those cases.

Another point is the difficulty, I go for normal because I like exploring and occasionally get challenged for some tense action.
I disagree with the "Normal" aspect, it should be "Hard" in my opinion.
I do consider everything I have done in that regard, not just platforming or just the maze, but truly everything.

Of course some of the setups for the pathing aren't obvious and you can go back to check that yes, it was actually doable for someone else and it's not difficult.
It's not always the case though, since I only had access to one map, there were setups that would have required some prior knowledge to do those, like in the "Winds" area.
And still, there are precise and difficult setups that require some precise and / or timed jumps, multiple times on a single save.
Despite of course knowing the setup to make things easy(er).

Potential level breaking bug, if you restart inside home after looking at the Fast travel map, it's possible to start with extra tools that should only be accessible to Edward with Randall and Janet.

I might have to give up on this since I feel like I am softlocked without any inside help from the level and exhausted the intuitive thoughts for progression.
Maybe in the future I'll restart a new save, but I feel like that something is missing to make this level another marble in the KS level for the community.

I know all the efforts that have been put in there and how long it took for this project to be born.
But doing things almost all alone is a heavy task, and knowing all the possibilities that can happen is exhausting but have to be considered to be sure that nothing (almost) gets unchecked.
Especially sotflocks, or potential level breaking bugs.

I hope I was not too harsh with this review, but I felt the need to express my concerns on this from my experience with the level.

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Offline Purple Ink

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Haven't gotten too far yet (I think) but what I'm seeing so far is fantastic! Great visuals and the different colours for different speakers is a really nice touch. Also having three different sets of powerups to traverse the landscape is an interesting concept. Will report back later when I actually finish this level. :)

**WARNING THIS REPLY WILL CONTAIN PROGRESSION SPOILERS**

The objectives are not completely linear, after finding the deer statue there are many possible "next steps" to open shortcuts and pave the way deeper into the jungle. The next big objective you'll want to work on would be finding a torch for Janet which can be done in 2 ways. Either using the sunken wilds fast-travel map location, going right and exploring the bottom right side of this area, OR climbing up the waterfall in the normal jungle area with Janet and finding a cave to the right.

The ?s on the route screen will never change, those are static images. The purpose is to show where a "shortcut" needs to be opened, once that shortcut is opened the route will not update accordingly, it's simply a basic guideline as to what might be blocked off, and what general area the characters want to do within the main zone.

I only created routes for the starting area because they are meant to give a general idea as to where to go, after this I wanted players to discover the other zones on their own.

I think I know the bug you're talking about and will fix it asap!
I also understand maze levels aren't for everyone, it does take a lot of knowledge and exploring to find out "where to go" so I understand if you don't enjoy the format :)

To help anyone who might want guidance I will provide a basic list of objectives you will want to do to progress. This is focusing on core objectives, you will still need to open shortcuts and whatnot with other characters to complete these.


1. Use Edward to find the deer statue in the caves below the main island (1004x1003)

2. Use Janet to climb to the top of the main island and open the water dam, you can get here by climbing the wall near the starting area, then climbing the next wall after it

3. Take Randall to west beach and use him to unlock the fast travel point here

4. Take Randall to Sunken Wilds via West Beach and use him to unlock the map location there

5. Get a torch for Janet from the sunken wilds (1003x1013) or the upper jungle (1009x999)
5.1 Use Janet to open the shortcut in the upper part of the jungle (1007x999)

6. Enter the cave in West Beach (997x1008) with Janet and solve the puzzle here (you do not need anything to solve this except Edward's dream in step 1, the clues for the puzzle are found on the obelisks around West Beach) (SPOILER the code is 2,3,4,1)

7. With Edward go to the Deep Canopy (1010x994) after Janet solved the puzzle this door is now open. After finishing this section climb the Deep Canopy mountain with Edward and use the water dam. (1013x991)

8. Take Edward to the Volcano and complete the fall section to open the path

9. Take Janet to the dark caves in West Beach (1002x1010) and open the shortcut

10. Fast Travel Randall to Sunken Wilds and use him to explore left of this region until finding a way back to the main island. From here use him to gain access to the Volcano and unlock it.

11. Fast travel Janet to the Volcano and explore the right side (you will find a spear)

12. Take Janet to Deep Canopy and go to the far left. Use Janet's spear to clear the way forward

13. Take Randall to Deep Canopy and go far left to unlock the map location

14. You can now access the ending from the Deep Canopy map area using Edward GGs
Twist the rules, go where nobody has gone before.

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Offline GrayFace

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Incredible level! However, looks like I'm stuck: I returned to x1009y994 with the girl and there doesn't seem to be a way out. (yep, must be a bug, I cheated my way out of it)
Lacking save spots: on the right side of x1009y1003, in x1009y1015, in x997y1006 (after the slow walking, of utmost necessity).
Proper difficulty is Very Hard/Very Hard (Very Hard rooms are still present in "Casual")
Edit:
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 13:55:52 by GrayFace »