What if Knytt Stories had a spiritual successor? (discussion/concepts)

UPDATE: This OP is outdated. Scroll down below to see my updated ideas.

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Okay, okay, okay, just hear me out for a sec.

I've been thinking lately: there still are people who have been making Knytt Stories for a long time to this very day. And sadly, the number is quite small. Back in 2010, you could expect a decent amount of people coming to the forums, creating levels, and making Lets' Plays of KS on YouTube, but sadly those times have passed. I think the reason for this is because-- well-- the game is quite old nowadays. And honestly, I think it needs some sort of revamp or big mod in order for more people on the internet to experience it.

But then I realized: it already exists. So what gives!?

The thing is: for new players, it's not straightforward to find out that KS+ even exists. Therefore, it leads to people not even experiencing the modded and enhanced KS experience.

Then I thought-- maybe the hidden gold within KS isn't within a huge mod, but within a huge sequel.

Now, I know what you're thinking. "Isn't Knytt Underground already a sequel to KS?" Honestly, if you ask me, I feel it's more of a game within a similar universe than an actual sequel to KS itself. Underground plays very similarly to KS, but as far as I know, it doesn't have a level editor (correct me if I'm wrong). Nor does it have the same feel that KS does (almost none of the same powerups, you turn into a ball, all the foreground tiles are black, etc.) But it does have some foundations that a modern game has that makes it more accessible to new players, such as dialogue between two characters programmed in, moving background objects, etc.

It's honestly doubtful that KS would ever get a sequel at this point.

But what if we made it?

We have some people who are acquainted with the original Knytt Stories code here on the forum -- so why not get together and make sort of a proof of concept that a sequel can happen?

At first, I thought that was a good idea... until I realized that this really isn't our game, it's Nifflas's. So we probably need his permission first before we can do this for real.

But until then... we could at least speculate what features would get into the sequel, what it would look like, make concepts in Photoshop/After Effects/Fusion, etc.

Here's a list of features this sequel could have, if it ever does happen:

Bigger screens
Try to play unmodded Knytt Stories on a 1080p monitor. Tiny, right? Monitors have just gotten bigger and bigger since 2010, so it only makes sense to make the game screens bigger as a result. I'm thinking that we could temporarily double the size of the original KS screen size and use that for a temporary base until we gather the specifics later on.

Dialogue trees and dialogue between two characters on a single screen
Speaks for itself, really. I'd also like to see subtle dialogue box animations, and maybe even customizable dialogue box styles!

Near-infinite layers for foregrounds/backgrounds, and foreground tiles
Instead of just having seven or so layers, there can be a custom layer window inside the Toolbox that allows you to add layers into separate categories: foreground, background, or midground. You can add objects or tiles to any of these three layer types. You'll also be able to put regular tiles in front of [main character], so that you can just pass through them, acting if they're closer to the camera.

The choice between making sidescrollers or isometric levels
This could be added on sometime after beta release (if we even get that far), but I was thinking when you make a new level, you can either choose to have it be a sidescroller (like in classic Knytt Stories) or have it be isometric (comparable to games like Habbo (remember that)?) to mix things up and such.

Other features could include:

• Online multiplayer mode
• An all-new website and level database for the game
• The ability to easily make custom powerups for levels
• Local and online co-op mode
• Animated cutscenes
• Blocks that change your speed when you're walking on them
• Easily create custom characters and swap out between them during levels!
• Play levels on different difficulty modes
• Have more than just four keys/key blocks per level
• And more!

I was thinking about calling this game (if it ever gets off the ground) Knytt Worlds. What do you guys think?

Discussion, constructive criticism, comments, and questions are appreciated! (I'll actually be making concepts for the thread soon!)

Sounds nice, I'm not sure how would this turn out though. I had a similar idea a while ago. I don't have any experience in programming, so I didn't feel like posting it on the forum, but whaterver - here's what I had in mind:

Knytt Stories Remake on Steam

Merge: Knytt Stories + Ego's KS Plus + add online mode (like the one hugobros3 made)
Add some new functionalities, allow players to download levels in-game (with a search engine, rating system). Nifflas himself could then get the game to Steam Greenlight...


[/a man can dream]

The thing is: for new players, it's not straightforward to find out that KS+ even exists. Therefore, it leads to people not even experiencing the modded and enhanced KS experience.

I feel that KS+ is a work in progress, primarily being developed in service of egomassive's own level The Tree of Knowledge (not to downplay his efforts catering to the community's needs and requests). I hope that when his level is released (or when a larger quantity of KS+ exclusive levels are available) the mod will reach an expanded audience, but maybe this is baseless optimism. The completion of the updated level archive might also bring about a resurgence in players, but that would require someone plucking it from its current limbo.

That said, I'm actually super comfortable with the current amount of active creators and players. Even with the current rate of level releases, I struggle to keep up and I still have a pretty big backlog of unplayed levels. I'm not that interested in a fan-made Knytt Stories successor beyond KS+ as I still enjoy working within the limitations of the format, but good luck with your ambitions.

KS+ is supposed to be complete, but clearly it still requires tweaking from time to time. I intended it not to be a platform for a single level of mine, but as a general upgrade to KS*. It is basically my effort to create KS 2.0 and put some life into the community.

Personally at this point, I think a grand effort is too much to ask of the community. Although many of the ideas put forth here are good ones, I'd much rather have something entirely new. In fact, I desire to make my own game with a focus on easy-to-build user-made levels. I'm working on other endeavors at the moment though.

As for KS and KS+, they're still kicking. Great levels are still being made and released.

*OK, that holo-limiter was put in specifically for the level I'm working on. Otherwise, I really haven't built it around my own level design plans. In fact, I have no plans to use Golden Creatures for anything.

My sentiment is more-or-less the same as sergio's. KS and Ego's mod are all I need at this point.

That's not to say a new type of game with open editing in mind would be unwelcome. To make it a sequel to KS though, officially or not, seems like the wrong idea. Perhaps a different type of game altogether would be welcome.

I don't think Nifflas would make a knytt stories sequel the way you think. Knytt Stories was an MMF2 application, and Nifflas moved away from it. He now uses Unity. So if he were to make a sequel, it would be remade completely in Unity. It would have different graphics, different elements, etc. It would be cool though, don't get me wrong! But I wonder if it would feature a level editor too, and it would take a lot of time as well.

If Nifflas would decide to make a sequel, I would want him to make it as he thinks it should be, not as we want it to be. I bet he can reuse lots of Knytt Underground though. It even has a Juni sprite already. Would it be as customizable as Knytt Stories? Unlikely.

Now, I know what you're thinking. "Isn't Knytt Underground already a sequel to KS?" Honestly, if you ask me, I feel it's more of a game within a similar universe than an actual sequel to KS itself. Underground plays very similarly to KS, but as far as I know, it doesn't have a level editor (correct me if I'm wrong). Nor does it have the same feel that KS does (almost none of the same powerups, you turn into a ball, all the foreground tiles are black, etc.) But it does have some foundations that a modern game has that makes it more accessible to new players, such as dialogue between two characters programmed in, moving background objects, etc.

Just to correct you: KU does have an editor available (the one Nifflas used, plus the one I made, but neither is as usable as the original KS editor, mainly because you still have to write lots of .ini files and Python scripts by hand). But yeah, KU is very different from KS from a level-making perspective, since you don't advance in the game by acquiring Powers. In this regard KU is more similar to Knytt; of course, you can still make quests, but they're more akin to traditional adventure games than Metroid-like games.

It'd be nice if a KS sequel/remake were to be made, but I sincerely doubt just a KS upgraded with current technologies and standards plus a few tweaks and additions (like new Powers) here and there would make it nearly as popular as the original. Back when it was released, KS had no real competition, so now what's needed to regain some interest is... I really don't know ^^ Maybe new ideas? KU was kind of a new take on the Knytt (and WaDF) formula with new ideas, but it wasn't made with level-making in mind, I believe (base game is huge, editor made primarily for Nifflas himself, most ideas already used in the main game).

I bet he can reuse lots of Knytt Underground though. It even has a Juni sprite already. Would it be as customizable as Knytt Stories? Unlikely.

I tried to make the most of what I understood of KU when making the sample level, and aside from having trouble actually making a level that was more than a handful rooms, it's so different that a lot of things from KS just can't be done. What's more customizable is scripting (and even there there are many gotchas) and background (read: non-interactive) objects, and those you can't even draw frame-by-frame. Finally, there's the 'level selection world plus 3 worlds' structure that's forced into the game, but I suppose it could be done away with easily if Nifflas wanted to.

Obviously what makes KS great isn't the original Nifflas levels and stories (though they were great) but the community that built up around it and created hundreds of excellent levels. What enabled that is the simple, easy-to-use editor. So what this project would have to be would be a much more detailed level/world/game editor that is still VERY easy to use.

You would need to keep ALL of the functionality of the current KS, and add a bunch more.

Things to add:

• Not just more power-ups, but customizable power-ups. Why shouldn't the level editor allow the user to customize a double-jump into a triple-jump or quadruple jump? Or an umbrella that lets her float upwards? Or a swim powerup that ignores certain objects?
  
• Screen size should be customizable. Go above a certain threshold and it follows Juni around.
• Procedural-generated worlds from a given Tileset. Put in parameters like "no jumps bigger than..." then let it generate a bunch of screens. Then the user goes in and tweaks them, adds powerups and enemies and what have you.
• Easier state changes. Right now redoing screens over and over again is a pain.

I am actually a Sr. Principal Software Engineer and I have a lot of experience designing, writing, and maintaining software (and leading a team of people to do so) so if you decide to get this thing off the ground, I am definitely in.

Obviously what makes KS great isn't the original Nifflas levels and stories (though they were great) but the community that built up around it and created hundreds of excellent levels. What enabled that is the simple, easy-to-use editor. So what this project would have to be would be a much more detailed level/world/game editor that is still VERY easy to use.

I agree with this but I also kind of agree with LPChip. I'd want Nifflas to make it the way he would want to.

God, I dunno what I was thinking when I wrote this post. I was slightly tired and I didn't entirely think this through. I don't think Knytt Stories should have a fan-made sequel, because the original game is good as is.

What I actually want to have is sort of a "fantasy console" (like PICO-8, Voxatron, etc) based on Knytt/Stories that has a completely different name, but plays similarly to Stories. It could have a more in-depth creator, but it would still have graphical/size limitations, like Stories does.

And it could have seperate 2D and isometric styles, and stuff, maybe? I dunno!! I still need to flesh this out.

But yeah, no sequel. (Unless Nifflas wants to do one, in which case that's completely cool.) Instead, spiritual successor fantasy console.

You get what I'm puttin' down?