'Knytt Underground'

having the level editor from the time the game is released for this type of game would be bad I think. A lot of people would play a little bit, and then just start making levels. I'd like to see a level editor, but not for some time after the game is out. that way you could actually complete the game and then be able to make levels.

I just don't see what would stop people from working on their level and playing the game itself.  If the game is huge, then I'm not going to play it all in one sitting anyway.  I'll play an hour here, an hour there, until I've finished it.  So what would be so bad if I played an hour of the game, played around with the level editor a bit, played another hour of the game, and so on?  I can play a game, go about my life and do lots of other things, and then come back and play more of the game--so why can't learning the game's level editor be one of those many things that I do when I'm not playing the game?

In my opinion, the only way someone would stop playing a game before finishing it is if they're just not enjoying the game itself that much.  If it's a great game, they're going to want to keep playing it.  Just having something else they also want to do sometimes isn't going to stop them from finishing a game they enjoy.

having the level editor from the time the game is released for this type of game would be bad I think. A lot of people would play a little bit, and then just start making levels. I'd like to see a level editor, but not for some time after the game is out. that way you could actually complete the game and then be able to make levels.

Releasing the editor with the game before has never been a problem really for any games I can think of. If anything it will keep players coming back instead of maybe putting the game aside when they're finished and never become aware of an editor release.

having the level editor from the time the game is released for this type of game would be bad I think. A lot of people would play a little bit, and then just start making levels. I'd like to see a level editor, but not for some time after the game is out. that way you could actually complete the game and then be able to make levels.

Maybe one approach can be to provide at launch not the editor, but the instructions/documents of the editor (python libraries, features of the game engine, and so on). This way, the people that want to create levels (me included) can understand how the foundations of knytt underground work. Like warm-up exercises before the real fight.

I think something to remember is that the free version will have the level editor but not the main adventure, meaning that people who have the adventure will have paid for it. It seems unlikely that someone would pay extra for the adventure and then just ignore it and use the editor   

I think something to remember is that the free version will have the level editor but not the main adventure, meaning that people who have the adventure will have paid for it. It seems unlikely that someone would pay extra for the adventure and then just ignore it and use the editor   

True, but its more likely that they'll not buy the adventure at all in such case.

I really want Knytt Underground to be a big success. I feel like Nifflas doesn't get nearly enough attention as he deserves through his amazing work, specially with his super low prices and free games/platforms like Knytt and Knytt Stories. Maybe we could all help change that with Knytt Underground.
I don't really know what's Nifflas's situation right now, but if we shared a bit of story about his games on places like Reddit, maybe we could help. Specially since there is going to be a DRM-free version, that helps a lot.

By the way, I've seen indie devs selling their game on their own webpage with a DRM-free version + Steam key, for the same price as the Steam game (minus the Steam launch discounts) I bet that would be a really good way to bring in some people.
Oh, and I'm assuming this will be on Steam, since other Nifflas games are there.

Reading the topic I fail to understand entirely why a level editor at launch will be a big deal either way...

On the one hand, people sometimes will be more inclined to buy a game if it has an editor, depending on how creative they are and the general capabilities of the editing. On the other hand, if you release it later on, people will still be equally inclined to play or not play the actual game, it just depends on what they intend to do originally. I don't see anyone who actually wanted to play the game....not playing the game...editor or not. Making people wait for the editor is silly to me personally because other than limiting people to the main game until you release it, the end result is going to end up the same, unless of course you actually need more development time on it, in which I can see a valid reason for waiting.

Point is, if people are going to skip to the editor right away, they will do so once you release it if they see fit to do that originally anyway. It might even make people wait to buy it if you say you 'intend' to release an editor at a 'later date'. People are funny like that, but my point is that if they wanted to ruin the game by messing about in the editor, they will regardless of when you release it. So to that extent, why wait?

Okay, you got me convinced. I better focus on the game only up to the release anyway. I've spent twice as much time on this than on any other game before and I really hope you'll like it as much as I do.

It depends. Changing the editor may help improve your own productivity, in which case it's a must.

Releasing the editor with the game before has never been a problem really for any games I can think of. If anything it will keep players coming back instead of maybe putting the game aside when they're finished and never become aware of an editor release.

I totally agree. The point about people not paying for the main adventure it the editor is released right away does make a lot of sense though. They will see all free levels made for the game and have less reasons to pay.

Maybe one approach can be to provide at launch not the editor, but the instructions/documents of the editor (python libraries, features of the game engine, and so on). This way, the people that want to create levels (me included) can understand how the foundations of knytt underground work. Like warm-up exercises before the real fight.

That's really weird. Such documents are made last, if at all.
If there were more beta testers, I would suggest releasing the dev version of editor as is in the beta to see what people can do with it and what changes they would suggest.

If there were more beta testers, I would suggest releasing the dev version of editor as is in the beta to see what people can do with it and what changes they would suggest.

Why would there need to be "more" beta testers for that?

I personally would love to have any version of the editor released during the beta.  Even if it's only functional enough that I can start importing my photos in to see how they look in an actual level, so that I can start getting all my photos ready for when it's time to make the level itself when the full editor is released.  

There was an incomplete editor released a long time ago in a previous stage of "beta testing" (for coming up with puzzle suggestions) but it didn't have the ability to put photos in the levels.  Even just a version of that editor with the added option of putting photos in, so I can test how they look in the game, would make me very happy.

Quote from: GrayFace on August 13, 2012, 13:30:02

If there were more beta testers, I would suggest releasing the dev version of editor as is in the beta to see what people can do with it and what changes they would suggest.

Why would there need to be "more" beta testers for that?

There are only a few people from the whole forum who made levels for my and ego's KS mods, so I thought the beta editor would pass mostly unused. It's good if I'm wrong. In any case, it's better to release it in beta than not.

I remember reading here that Knytt underground would use Python for the quest scripting. Maybe I'm having a stroke and this is a lie, but in case it isn't, I'm curious about this. What will this allow us to do? Is it limited to scripting quests or does it give us the liberty to really change the game? Or did I misunderstand how Python would be implemented here?

The Python aspect of the game mainly has hooks related to the quest/dialog system, map, savedata, inventory and music playback. It allows you to create complicated quest structures and dynamic music that reacts to what happens in the game. Unfortunately, there are no realtime functions or hooks so you can not manipulate the core mechanics of the game itself.

There's still not an user friendly editor for the game. If I get time over, I may make an attempt to create a nice editor before the game release.

I read that this is getting released in Europe for PlayStation Plus on December 21st. Is there a US release date yet?