The amazing topic of profanity :)

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Offline GrayFace

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2012, 21:01:19 »
Thanks for the links.

Sexism is quite pervasive in both the industry and culture of video games. It is bad enough that a woman wanting to create a series of free videos exploring sexism in video games was met with hundreds of threats of rape and other violence.
That's not a well representation of situation with sexism I think, the video got attention of trolls community and that's how ugly trolls are. For her they've been a huge help though. She got $150k thanks to them and when I searched "sexism" on google one of the first results I got was this video. BTW I liked YouTube comments on the screenshot, such as "Would be better if she filmed this in the kitchen" or "tits or gtfo", these are exactly the right responses to that boring video.

Edit: I've watched the video again, this time watched it whole and didn't find it that boring. Guess it seemed so boring because I was trying to find actual information about sexism and it didn't contain any, it was a video about videos about sexism.

A good example of sexism in AAA games is the trailer for Hitman: Absolution, which positively presents a man killing a group of hybrid nun/dominatrix/assassins. You can view it here
Yeah, that one looks disturbing, it's like killing kids, which became a complete taboo in games. Something that sensitive persons shouldn't see.
I don't quite get the "sexually arousing" argument applied to this trailer. Imagine if instead of the Charlie's Angels looking girls there were overweight or otherwise more down-to-earth nuns killed >) That would be a lot grosser!

Sexism also manifests in slightly subtler ways, such as a developer of Borderlands 2 casually referring to an easier mode within the game as "girlfriend mode".
A lot subtler I would say. It's a harmless joke. It seems some people just love to feel offended by everything, even by jokes like this.

That piece also brings up rape culture with regards to gaming culture, something you can read more about here.
I didn't read much into the article, but found out about Penny Arcade comic thanks to it. :)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2012, 22:50:23 by GrayFace »

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Offline Nifflas

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2012, 01:49:14 »
One important thing is that sex and beauty isn't equal to sexism. I'm not the slightest bit opposed to neither sex, beauty, or nudity in games. The reason I find it a problem with the game industry is the way males and females are pretty much always portrayed. The stereotypes are extreme on both sides, and at GamesCom every male character seems to be some cool and dangerous guy with a massive gun or sword, while every female character who isn't in need of being rescued totally fails being a candidate for women fighters in reasonable amours.

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A lot subtler I would say. It's a harmless joke. It seems some people just love to feel offended by everything, even by jokes like this.
It's one of a thousand variants of "what are you, a woman?" which suggests men are supposed to be stronger and better and that there is some kind of shame being thought of as feminine as a man. I've heard these jokes way too many times to wave it away as harmless, even though that's what they are meant to be. Also, when stereotypical male properties are assigned to females, it tend to be thought of as something positive. All this just suggests that male > female, and it's an idea that really needs to change.

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That's not a well representation of situation with sexism I think, the video got attention of trolls community and that's how ugly trolls are.
It's just not Anita. Feminists who blogs or write for other medias are frequently attacked and threatened. I've followed a bunch of such stories myself. There seems to be a whole lot of males who take personal offense when inequality between genders is suggested to be a problem. I wonder why it's so touchy. And even if "they're just trolling", the fact that it's so frequent against women expressing feminist views... does that really make it any better?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 02:28:43 by Nifflas »

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Offline Yoeri

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2012, 03:25:51 »
I agree that the fact that sexism and other discrimination forms are so present in video games is absolutely terrible. However, I fail to see a connection to profanity or how exposing kids to profanity is going to change anything.


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Offline Widget

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2012, 03:53:10 »
The profanity in this game isn't supposed t "fix" the problem with sexism in the videogame industry. This is simply a tangential discussion that's popped up in the thread.

Not that I think it's a bad tangent to run off onto, just that it's not the point of having profanity in the game.

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Offline SiamJai

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2012, 09:05:10 »
The tangent is the comparison of profanity to sexism in the gaming industry. As far as I'm concerned, both of them are equally damaging, ie. not the slightest bit. :P

Living in Asia, I see this current fascination with anything remotely 'sexist' in gaming as a uniquely western issue. Some of the most openly sexist, unapologetic games have come from the east, and yet this doesn't show any effect when it comes to actual real-world intolerance. Just today I saw women walking holding hands, men openly and casually dressing and behaving like the opposite sex, and muslim women following their tradition, covered from head to toe. All of these are normal everyday sightings anywhere in the country; no-one bats an eye or has second thoughts. How would they be treated in your country? From what I've heard and seen, they'd likely be banned, criticized or even attacked on sight.

Games have nothing to do with real-life intolerance and sexist attitudes, but they make easy scapegoats for cultures that are afraid to take a hard, honest self-critique to find the real root causes. Apologetic gaming insiders and opportunistic media folks are not helping either.

I just hope that this sexism fad will go out of fashion sooner than later, relegated to occasional flares like the 'guns in games omg' trope that comes up briefly whenever there is some gun-related crime. We're already pretty good at recognizing and telling others that Doom doesn't turn people into serial killers, yet we fail to recognize that Peach and bikini armor won't confine women into the kitchen.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 09:26:40 by SiamJai »

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Offline Salmoneous

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2012, 09:24:19 »
One important thing is that sex and beauty isn't equal to sexism. I'm not the slightest bit opposed to neither sex, beauty, or nudity in games. The reason I find it a problem with the game industry is the way males and females are pretty much always portrayed.

I guess one reason is to keep to costumer knowing what to expect. Armour that's not Armour but steel bikini is something all gamers know is a thing. Therefor it's an accepted approach at putting more sexism into a game. People may pay more attention if they see boobs in a trailer or picture of an upcoming game. Sex appeal is one of the greatest tools in advertisement and marketing. It's a simple way to make more money and it's working. So it's ultimately only good for business to have sexism stereotypes in your game.

while every female character who isn't in need of being rescued totally fails being a candidate for women fighters in reasonable amours.

So you praise female characters that aren't sexist? Alex Vance from hl2, I find her character annoying. She's only appreciated because she don't put out and is a 'strong' female character. Isn't this exactly the same thing? You're making a stereotype out of something as a counter measurement to a stereotype. everyone has preconceptions, it doesn't mean everyone can't keep an open mind.

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Offline Widget

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2012, 11:35:43 »
Games have nothing to do with real-life intolerance and sexist attitudes, but they make easy scapegoats for cultures that are afraid to take a hard, honest self-critique to find the real root causes. Apologetic gaming insiders and opportunistic media folks are not helping either.

Games are a reflection of the cultural issues that are the underlying problem (as are many forms of media to a greater or lesser degree) and a part of the overwhelming barrage of negative images that perpetuate the issue down the generations. The big issue with games (in the west, at least) is that children are playing games targetted at adults and so the "harmless" sexism so prevalent in these games is one more very poor influence on these children's idea of "normal" gender roles.

The openly liberal attitude you describe seeing tells me you live in a city which will give you a skewed perspective. Cities are, almost by their nature, very cosmopolitan, liberal places; a melting pot of cultures and attitudes that's totally unlike rural or even suburban life. Added to that, is the fact that the damage done by these kinds of attitudes is rarely played out on the open streets; it's in the home, and in the bedroom where younger and younger women (girls, in fact) are being subjected to more and more violence and, though they rarely know to describe it as such, sexual assault.

I'm not saying games are entirely, or even predominantly, to blame for this problem in the UK (though I'm sure it's not just here it's happening) but it's one more form of media spouting the same damaged, and damaging, ideas. The problem is the sum of all the individual parts, but that doesn't make the part any less objectionable.

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Offline Nifflas

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2012, 12:12:43 »
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I agree that the fact that sexism and other discrimination forms are so present in video games is absolutely terrible. However, I fail to see a connection to profanity or how exposing kids to profanity is going to change anything.
My point was (well, from the start at least) just that people sometimes worry too much about the wrong things. Use the word "fuck" and the game is instantly forced into a PEGI-16 rating, but sexism may not affect the ratings at all. Then from there the topic shifted into being about sexism because... well, it's one of those topics that do tend to grow when it comes up X)

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So you praise female characters that aren't sexist? Alex Vance from hl2, I find her character annoying. She's only appreciated because she don't put out and is a 'strong' female character. Isn't this exactly the same thing? You're making a stereotype out of something as a counter measurement to a stereotype.
I didn't find her annoying at all. While it's true what you say with sometimes we fight stereotypes by making stereotypes, I didn't actually feel too much of that with her character just because she's "strong" or whatever. I thought of her as a likeable and well developed character.

Anyway, to somehow try to get back to KU, the game will actually do have a bit of sexism, but it'll not be presented as something positive. We'll see how it works out. The story is kinda weird in this game, I'm a bit afraid of releasing it ;) ...
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 15:55:18 by Nifflas »

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Offline GrayFace

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2012, 13:23:22 »
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A lot subtler I would say. It's a harmless joke. It seems some people just love to feel offended by everything, even by jokes like this.
It's one of a thousand variants of "what are you, a woman?" which suggests men are supposed to be stronger and better and that there is some kind of shame being thought of as feminine as a man. I've heard these jokes way too many times to wave it away as harmless, even though that's what they are meant to be. Also, when stereotypical male properties are assigned to females, it tend to be thought of as something positive. All this just suggests that male > female, and it's an idea that really needs to change.
If it was called "girl's mode", then yes, but "girlfriend's"? When I read it I pictured a situation when a man player gets his girlfriend into the game he plays, she would surely play worse. Men are more into computer games overall, so the situation is very believable.

It's just not Anita. Feminists who blogs or write for other medias are frequently attacked and threatened. I've followed a bunch of such stories myself. There seems to be a whole lot of males who take personal offense when inequality between genders is suggested to be a problem. I wonder why it's so touchy. And even if "they're just trolling", the fact that it's so frequent against women expressing feminist views... does that really make it any better?
I agree.

Just today I saw women walking holding hands, men openly and casually dressing and behaving like the opposite sex
These men would surely have problems in Russia, there's a lot of homophobia here. Yet, if these are normal everyday sightings, that's also a problem. It's another extreme that is wrong.

Alex Vance from hl2, I find her character annoying. She's only appreciated because she don't put out and is a 'strong' female character. Isn't this exactly the same thing? You're making a stereotype out of something as a counter measurement to a stereotype. everyone has preconceptions, it doesn't mean everyone can't keep an open mind.
I think she's cool. She didn't annoy me.
Valve has made an interesting character, while many others just copy, making stereotypical characters with cliche dialogs. Lack of imagination is the problem and Valve deserves a cookie for not having it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2012, 13:33:42 by GrayFace »

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Offline LPChip

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2012, 14:10:36 »
The story is kinda weird in this game, I'm a bit afraid of releasing it  ...
As I actually have some background info on this, let me be the one to tell you not to worry. I've seen worse stories do well. I bet most people will see it like I do, as if it was done to add a bit of comedy to the game, because thats basically what it does. You put it in such way in the game that it makes it an enjoyment rather than a serious story (which I think is a very good way to tell the story)
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Offline Nifflas

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2012, 14:13:53 »
I hope it works. The game deals with things that are quite serious and personal, and I figure making something funny out of it that doesn't take itself too seriously is a nice approach.

Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2012, 01:53:59 »
It's great to see such a thoughtful discussion on a gaming forum, and I think it's a sign that the story in KU will be interesting and that the people playing it will be capable of appreciating it.  :)

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Offline Dj Gopher

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2012, 01:15:28 »
I hope it works. The game deals with things that are quite serious and personal, and I figure making something funny out of it that doesn't take itself too seriously is a nice approach.
Good! I don't like when things are so over done and overly perfected that they become consumed by themselves.
Also, on that note, some fourth-wall-breaking-easter-eggs could be cool :)

Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2012, 20:11:58 »
I hope it works. The game deals with things that are quite serious and personal, and I figure making something funny out of it that doesn't take itself too seriously is a nice approach.

Ooo nice! Being a little worried about releasing the game is sure to be a good sign, sometimes that's needed in order to take your stuff to the next level.

Ontopic I wouldn't see it as a problem that you can't use the word "fuck", it doesn't say a lot anyway. It's a bit hard to give tips when you don't know the situation. "Fuck" is boring but all-round, maybe you could try to use words more specific for the situation. That would probably give the dialogues more bite (is that a swedish expression, "mer bett"?). For example attacking the people she is cursing at their weak spots, or for general outbursts phrases like "Why do I have to spend my pitiful life in this god-forsaken hole!" (if the story takes place in a cave) (the word "hole" could be exchanged for "intestinal" for more drama)

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Offline Pumpkinbot

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Re: The amazing topic of profanity :)
« Reply #59 on: October 10, 2012, 07:48:56 »
Just read this topic 'cause I just recently started lurking posting here again. I really like this idea, Nifflas, and I see where you're coming from 100%.

I'd say you should make up a Knytt language and incorporate that into the cursing. Though a fictional language usually ends up being kind of humorous. :P If you're going for that, then there you go. "You farping piece of shit!" "What the farp are you waiting for?!"

If you're not, then I'd say exchange words. "Fuck" is pretty versatile, but maybe exchange it with a verb cuss word when it's used as a verb, noun when it's a noun, etc, though, to be honest, I can't really think of a verb besides "screw you", which isn't anywhere near as strong. :P
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