[Challenge - Puzzle] (Normal) A Hero's tale

And so, after a few weeks of development, I finally got the first chapter done, and I will post every chapter in this thread.

So, you're Juni, of the underground Knytts. You are setting out to fight the evil "Dark one" who drove the knytts back underground. The thing is, though is that Knytts cannot fight, and Juni doesn't know what she's getting herself into.

The level's link

I tried to get rid of every SGE and void possible, and if you are stuck and need help, feel free to ask for some guidance.

Oh, and credit to Fredrik Andersson for one titleset.

Nice! Congratulations 

I'm about to offer to beta-test for Yohji but I'll givee this a try as soon as I'm able.

I tested it and found many thing that could be done better.

-You should tell when you get an item. For those 4 items, i had to check on the editor to know what i got : Hologram,  eye (you have 0.5 sec of text while falling, it's too short), double jump and, detector.
-There is bugs with your cinematics made with shifts. Sometime, if you move, you get stuck and can't do anything. Why don't you make pictured cinematics instead?
-Without checking in the editor, it's almost impossible to guess that you have to stay behind and wait for the secret passage to open in the dark place.
-You have to repeat everything you've done from the beginning but with the double jump. Why don't you just give back most of the items?
-Finally, why would you leave in a boat at the end? There's isn't any text to explain anything there.

Eh, eh, I agree with most of Numberplay's crticisms. Particularly the dark place secret passage, I would've never gotten that if it weren't for his post. And anyway, I couldn't find the ending - got all the powerups, went to the lair, got my powerups removed and double jump handed to me, then had to get all the powerups... went to the lair... and now I have to get them all back, going through the same places and challenges for the third time? Eh 

On the plus side, there were some pretty screens here, the first one of the lair with the nice foreground, etc.

This level's pretty peculiar... in many places it just feels wilfully cruel. I'm particularly thinking of the yellow key (does that red enemy have to start exactly there? It's very frustrating if you jump out of the screen) and the dark cave you're banished to (count me as another who never would've guessed the way out) to say nothing of being forced to play the same level over and over for no apparent reason.

I also spent quite a while looking for the double-jump before using the blue key because of the message saying there's "no way back". I understand wanting to convey a certain atmosphere but that particular phrasing made it sound as though I'd missed something obvious.

The scene in which you find the umbrella should be a dead-end if it's supposed to be a dead-end; simply having a further scene to it's right with more water would be fine. I've never seen a route blocked off by a shift before and it's very frustrating as a player. Is there something out there I'm not supposed to reach yet? If so, why isn't it just inaccessible? I didn't have a full complement of powerups so it could've just been to far to jump but instead the designer's effectively reached down and shoved my character back with no explanation. Also, as mentioned before, the cutsenes sometimes jam up meaning the player has to redo a part of the level due to a bug.

I do really like the scenes aswell though, they look very good. I'm sorry this is so negative, I've really tried to play through it but it feels like work, not fun 

It's supposed to be "unfair", in a fashion. If I relied on enemies and traps to make a level hard, it truly isn't genuinely hard.

It's supposed to be cruel and torture because I want the evil guy to look and seem evil, even for a game. If this seems too hard, I will set up the difficulty to warn people of it. And I am sorry if I may have deluded thoughts of this by my unintentional trickery.


So, for some of the worst tricks this level has, I will say in spoiler tags how to get through them.




I hope I helped some. I may make an easy version tomorrow.

It's not that the level's challenging, it isn't especially, it's just obtuse and (by the second time round) tedious. It doesn't come off as fighting against a cruel villain, it feels like fighting a broken game.

Edit: Sorry, that's not even close to constructive. If you want it to be the malicious interference of a cruel villain you need to involve it more in the game. Any time it thwarts or subverts the players efforts it should be accopanied by a clear indication that that's what's going on. It doesn't necessarily need to be as blunt as an appearance or a speech but it has to be apparent.

As it stands we were all completely unaware that it was an omnipresent villain at work and, as a result, wrote it off as being a string of near game-breaking errors. We've all played our fair share of awful levels round here and if you're going to use some of the gameplay elements that crop up in those sort of levels it's a good idea to make it clear that you know what you're doing and there's a good reason for it.

Oh yes, and with the banishment cave.. I know you've got the ghost who says it's worthless to even try getting out you've set up an apparent exit that appears similar to a challenging section of game. People have preconceptions about how a game works and while it's possible to subvert those expectations to good effect it needs to be a constant. If you only go with odd appearances of it wrapped up in a very normal-looking game people aren't going to approach it in the right way and they'll mistake it for an error.
Many games have got brief moments in a similar situation but it's always a small enough area that the player can try every possibility for escape, notice it's useless and then wait for the cutscene or event that'll progress the story. People become accustomed to being the driving force that moves the story forward and tend to be very slow to realise when you've changed that.

Sorry, that's not even close to constructive. If you want it to be the malicious interference of a cruel villain you need to involve it more in the game. Any time it thwarts or subverts the players efforts it should be accopanied by a clear indication that that's what's going on. It doesn't necessarily need to be as blunt as an appearance or a speech but it has to be apparent.

As it stands we were all completely unaware that it was an omnipresent villain at work and, as a result, wrote it off as being a string of near game-breaking errors. We've all played our fair share of awful levels round here and if you're going to use some of the gameplay elements that crop up in those sort of levels it's a good idea to make it clear that you know what you're doing and there's a good reason for it.

Okay, sorry for making these mistakes. I will try to fix them as soon as possible. Thank you for your constructive criticism. I appreciate it that you are trying hard to help me develop a decent level, and as so, I will do my end of the deal.

 I will work more on this level, and to the things you have pointed out, I will try to make the level better than it is. I will add more dialog from the "dark one", I will add more elements to the story, and I will make it more linear as to what you're doing and why you're doing it. Once I have gotten done with this, I will check and see constantly to see the reception.

Oh yes, and with the banishment cave.. I know you've got the ghost who says it's worthless to even try getting out you've set up an apparent exit that appears similar to a challenging section of game. People have preconceptions about how a game works and while it's possible to subvert those expectations to good effect it needs to be a constant. If you only go with odd appearances of it wrapped up in a very normal-looking game people aren't going to approach it in the right way and they'll mistake it for an error.

Many games have got brief moments in a similar situation but it's always a small enough area that the player can try every possibility for escape, notice it's useless and then wait for the cutscene or event that'll progress the story. People become accustomed to being the driving force that moves the story forward and tend to be very slow to realise when you've changed that.

I was afraid of the banishment cave being too hard, I was going to add a notification of some sort that there's a button there. At first I was shooting for an area that seemed impossible to escape. I am subconsciously fixated on making lunatic or impossible levels. Maybe the next level I make will be a lunatic puzzle game, but this is not what it's about.

You could PM me a version of the cave that seems better fit for this game, and I will add it in. I don't mean this as an excuse or anything, though. But this is only my second level ever made. Not as an excuse to be lazy, but things are bound to be messed up or broken. I'm entirely new to this.

For the banishment cave, here's what i propose...
-It could look like a dead end. If the player know that he is cornered, he'll then start to search for a secret passage.
-The ghost could say that "there might be a way out but he stopped searching for it"
-The detector could be an item you don't lose or get back in the cave. Then you make a signal showing the exit.
or
-Since you keep the eye, use it to show the exit.
or
-find a way to remove the eye and open the exit that way.

Here's what I've done using some of my own propositions : link
This isn't really hard but at least it's not impossible to guess.

EDIT : oops, i copied your intro and did not remove it afterward.

But this is only my second level ever made. Not as an excuse to be lazy, but things are bound to be messed up or broken. I'm entirely new to this.

It's worth letting you know that I think you're showing a talent for it. Most of the issues seem to be down to not adequately explaining the ideas in-game and that's something all game/level/mod designers have to learn to work with. When you've been working on it for hours upon hours it becomes very difficult to know what'll be clear to a first-time player and what's only clear because of your deep familiarity with it. That's one of the big reasons people put their work out to be beta-tested, or ask their friends to play it while they watch. Without that blind testing it can be near-impossible to know what your players will understand of the mood or manage to find in the game.

I hope I've not been too blunt in all this. I don't want to discourage you, just try to help you to improve 

You haven't been any bit blunt. You've helped me figure out what the problem is with it, and that's a nice thing.

The final version of this level will be finished by Christmas. Thank you for helping.

For the banishment cave, here's what i propose...
-It could look like a dead end. If the player know that he is cornered, he'll then start to search for a secret passage.
-The ghost could say that "there might be a way out but he stopped searching for it"
-The detector could be an item you don't lose or get back in the cave. Then you make a signal showing the exit.
or
-Since you keep the eye, use it to show the exit.
or
-find a way to remove the eye and open the exit that way.

Here's what I've done using some of my own propositions : link
This isn't really hard but at least it's not impossible to guess.

EDIT : oops, i copied your intro and did not remove it afterward.

I was thinking more along the lines of making the force field visible so the player *knows* there is a possible escape.

The final version of this level will be finished by Christmas. Thank you for helping.

I'll be looking forward to it, I'm quite interested in the idea of subverting game mechanics and player expectations so it'll be interesting to see how it turns out.

I was thinking more along the lines of making the force field visible so the player *knows* there is a possible escape.

Well if you tried my map, you would see that i made the block in the wall clearly visible.

I agree with Numberplay critique. The black area is VERY bad. The umbrella screen could be blocked by a ghost wall, effectively doing the same thing as shifts, but in a cleaner manner. I hope this will become a good level in the end, but now it's more of a preview of future level.
BTW, is there really a detector somewhere in the level? I only saw it near the 'evil guy' and never actually found it.

I won't be able to finish it in time, I deeply apologize.

Too much stuff to do that I never had the time to play on my computer.