Think the community's state is /worth discussing/?

On another note, is Nifflas currently working on anything?

Two or three things, actually.

You'll be hearing of 'em sooner or later.

I even think it one of the games will "fix" a mixed feeling of the past.

I will not say more though. You'll find out when the time comes.

This forum has a unique feel to me because everyone is passionate about games as art. And many people here love making games as a way of expressing themselves. More than that, there is a free, shared feeling. Not completely open-source, but the next best thing. There are other systems that offer this functionality (Cube2 and Atmosphere come to mind). However, they are either too cumbersome to use or not flexible enough. Knytt Stories has the perfect entry barrier in my opinion. And I'm talking KS because it is the best of Nifflas' games (and the best game editor ever - period).

With KS, people can make art, customize the game experience, then share it - all relatively easy. This is a very rare and great gift, one that Nifflas' has given us (for free no less!)

In my opinion, Saira should have continued in this tradition. The game is AWESOME - smooth play, fun, with unique and amazing additions to platforming - and the game editing potential seemed amazing - a jumping ninja hacker girl - what could be cooler? 

But the Saira editor seems to have died. It was released in Dec 2009(?) and no one has released a custom level (not that I know of).

However, the potential to create the next game editing revolution is HERE - a new Saira editor. A few changes I would suggest:

- Re-design the Saira game editor to resemble the KS editor. The KS editor is incredibly awesome for 2d gaming. Don't abandon it.

- Remove/Block the MMF2 components from the Saira editor (for now). It just seems too easy to put a virus payload into the game. Also, most people don't have a license for MMF2 anyway.

- The community needs to make some basic tilesets/BG/sprites to go out with a new editor. I understand why Nifflas would not want to share his art. But starting from scratch is also daunting - lower the entry barrier by providing a few basic tilesets.

This new Saira editor could revolutionize the game editing community and continue the incredible KS tradition.

However, the potential to create the next game editing revolution is HERE - a new Saira editor. A few changes I would suggest:

- Re-design the Saira game editor to resemble the KS editor. The KS editor is incredibly awesome for 2d gaming. Don't abandon it.

- Remove/Block the MMF2 components from the Saira editor (for now). It just seems too easy to put a virus payload into the game. Also, most people don't have a license for MMF2 anyway.

- The community needs to make some basic tilesets/BG/sprites to go out with a new editor. I understand why Nifflas would not want to share his art. But starting from scratch is also daunting - lower the entry barrier by providing a few basic tilesets.

This new Saira editor could revolutionize the game editing community and continue the incredible KS tradition.

I'm sorry, but I doubt that'd be a good idea. The editor in Saira is more complex than the KS editor because Saira IS a more complex game, at least in terms of graphics and effects, so it'd be hard, if not impossible, to simplify it significantly. It'd be a lot easier to mod Knytt Stories instead, which a few people have been doing with mixed results.

I agree that the MMF2 puzzles and applications are more of a security threat than a useful feature for level makers, and also agree that the lack of an art base makes for a high entry barrier, but I think the main reasons why we're not seeing any custom level are: the small install base of the game (very very few people have Saira compared to KS) and the fact that you wouldn't be able to make a level that's different enough from the included episode without putting a lot of effort into it, no matter the editor you use.

Nice idea Dave, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. Nifflas himself didn't expect anyone to make custom levels for Saira, so the likelihood that he'll put extra work this late into the project just to make the editor more accessible is small. KS on the other hand, was designed to be community-oriented from the very beginning, with incentives for user-made content even before the game's official release. So we're comparing apples and oranges here.

Also, I don't think that complexity is the main reason why there are no custom Saira levels out there yet. After all, members have done a great job figuring out the editor soon after it was released, and the result is a fairly organized documentation for anyone interested.

Well, if a new Saira editor isn't going to happen, it isn't going to happen. I just thought I'd through my 2 cents in. Or 3 cents

AA probably has the best idea - continue to mod the existing Knytt Stories editor/game to add all those extra features. Perhaps a Knytt Stories 2 is the answer to this "community is dead" problem.

It seems to me that the whole point of Knytt Stories is that people could go on making stories forever.  The game comes with a couple stories and there are a couple official downloadable stories.  That same number of levels made by users, doing their best to approach that same level of quality, with custom graphics at least, and hopefully custom music as well = Knytt Stories 2.  That is, at that point you have twice as much Knytt Stories.  And four or five more quality levels = Knytt Stories 3, and so on.  The problem all along has been quality, not quantity.  So why would Nifflas make a "Knytt Stories 2" only to have people crank out tons of little levels they didn't really put enough care into, and any quality levels that do get made get lost in the flood?

It's good that Nifflas does what makes him happy and doesn't just try to do what might make the fans happy, i.e. making a user-friendly level editor for every game.  However, if a game isn't going to have a user-friendly editor, maybe it shouldn't have an editor at all.  The FiNCK editor lacked basic features like being able to see what the level looks like in the editor itself, and when some people requested these features in beta testing Nifflas said it was a quickly developed game and therefore he couldn't put in the time to make a proper editor.  Well then, maybe there just shouldn't be an editor in the first place.  Because what you end up with is a game no one makes levels for anyway (I can say personally that I would ten times more likely to make another FiNCK level if some of the simple features I requested in beta testing had been implemented.)

So the solution is not for Nifflas to make an editor for every game (unless he really wants to put in the time to make a good one) or for him to make another Knytt Stories (I would love to see Nifflas make another game with an editor as usable as the KS editor--but only if he really wants to.)  The solution is for the fans to focus less on quantity and more on quality.  And I really think a well-organized archive of existing levels and tilesets (and music and so forth), with a rating system, a favorites system, etc., (and searchable--so a person could do a search specifically for public tilesets, or whatever, to help them make their level) would help that happen.

I left the forum back in 2008 and started in Second Life, it had a huge amount of possibilities for making things. But also the problem of if you can make anything then you can spend a LOT of time deciding what to make and not actually creating anything.

If something is hard to create for then that can be tricky, also along with how able you are to make what you want. KS tilesets need a bit of art ability and making levels needs you to be able to wrap your head around how they work too. So if you struggle then your gonna give up at some point.

I found I liked making tilesets but making levels from them felt like work. As I knew what the level contained so couldn't enjoy playing it. I've had similar problems in Atmosphir, I want to make levels I can play myself and enjoy. But there I've ground to a halt by the game not having the blocks I want to make levels I've imagined. Here you can make any tileset you want though which is great.

I do see a few people from back in the day, still here, which is nice. But you do have to expect people to leave for lots of reasons. When somethings all new and shiney you'll get lots of visitors but them a large chunk will move on, some will stay longer than others, some won't.

I can remember people saying the same thing 3 years ago...... the forums still here though.

Seriously, the forum mods and admins need to take notice. If long time fans of nifflas are leaving, there's a serious problem with this forum. The mods are so scared of change. If there is a problem, there is usually also a solution. And if you mods say that you have been noticing, than why aren't you doing anything? It won't fix itself, you know.

rest in peace, nifflas forum

~it was nice knowing you~

NO. NO NONONONONONO The Forum can't be dead! I just came back to the forum from "somewhere" and now people are saying it's dead?

It's not dead its just dieing/becoming more and more inactive.

Seriously, the forum mods and admins need to take notice. If long time fans of nifflas are leaving, there's a serious problem with this forum. The mods are so scared of change. If there is a problem, there is usually also a solution. And if you mods say that you have been noticing, than why aren't you doing anything? It won't fix itself, you know.

Change what? Fix what?
And actually a lot of 'long time Nifflas fans' have been returning to the forum lately.

Posting rate in the NightSky and KnyttWaDF boards is crazy, this place is FAR from dead.

I'm slightly mixed on this subject, but I have come to the conclusion that unless there is severe abuse going on from forum members (staff or not), there isn't anything to fix; that is, it's just a normal cycle. It's also probably worth noting that most of the people who have left either didn't actually leave, or they complained about this same problem which I find ironic because now people think people leaving is one of the main causes of this problem. It's not. It just happens that sometimes people leave, or don't have the free time they once had. Perhaps even people do get on, but they don't find many subjects worth posting on/about. I don't think it's being exaggerated, but I do think people find it more important than it should be. I've been on many forums where you were lucky to have one post in a month, much less one, two, three or more in a day.

Also, I'm just going to throw my two-cents in here, but even if there were something wrong with the forum's activity, what would one expect the admins/moderators to do? You can't force people to post, and you can't go around advertising expecting the same. New games are the best bet for new and old users alike to post more, but it's not like you can't make something awesome to help add to the forum. A great KS level, an interesting challenge, even a level or demo for Saira or FiNCK would bring some attention and make it seem more popular here.

I've been looking around the forum since I posted last and I'm wondering if the reason the forums quiet is this ....

1) Back when I was here 3 years ago Knytt Stories was new and lots of people were making things for it. Creating levels or tilesets isn't too hard for KS. There was a steady stream of new levels and lots of people making them. It seems like theres very little being made now though, either for KS or  the other games levels can be made for. And without lots of people making levels etc theres less incentive for new people to start.

2) Knytt Stories was new ..... which I said above. But by this i mean people hadn't played it to death and even if something is great fun it's gonna lose it's appeal over time the more you play it and create for it. So anyone who's been here a long time will most likely lose the same enthusiasm for playing it and creating, but that doesn't mean KS is no good at all. Just overly familier to those who have been here years.

3) Creating seemed to be the second major part of the forum besides dicussing Nifflas's games. Which of course people still do, peek at the Night Sky part to see that. But theres not much creating going on ....which is possibly partly to do with what I said before about KS and also maybe because creating levels for the other games isn't as easy ? If Night Sky had an editor and it was as easy to use as KS then it would be a whole other story ! KnyttWadf will sort that out but isn't due for a while yet.

Soooo ......
What to do ? How about turning this thread on it's head and people come up with idea's to liven the forum up instead ?

My "In an ideal world" suggestions , kind of tongue in cheek, but here we go.  

1) Let people make KS levels with Night Sky tilesets.

2) Make a rolling ball work in KS, replace the Juni avtar with that. Probably a silly sugestion as Nifflas is making a Knytt/Wadf hybrid game already and I don't have the feintest clue how hard programming is. But if KS had a rolling ball and Nightsky tilesets that would generate a huge interest I think. Even if it was a simplistic implimentation but playable.

3) The physics editor we used on the old forum to come up with nightgame idea's was great fun, bring that back and let people come up with Night Sky idea's. Not that they would be used in the game of course as it's finished but people might like messing around with it anyhow.

4) Have people make Night Sky levels / wallpapers with  the tilesets. Levels that can't be play of course but it might be fun to design your own level idea's and show people.

Thats a few to get you started. I'll just go back to my padded cell and listen to the voices for a bit.