Think the community's state is /worth discussing/?

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Offline Mr. Monkey

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2011, 06:26:50 »
and who would make these, good sir
o__  o

Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2011, 07:14:03 »
some solutions? Either speed up the process of knyttlevels.com or just make a permanant ks section. Also, (saying this is pointless; been brought up and locked way too many times) maybe an offtopic section would make people post more, make people want to stick around
Posting rate in the NightSky and KnyttWaDF boards is crazy, this place is FAR from dead.
You're kidding me, It is more than normal but defiantly not crazy

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Offline SiamJai

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2011, 09:47:48 »
I've seen truly dead and declining forums; in comparison, this forum is a thriving community with a great ratio of high-quality posts every day. Sure, we had more active times (most notably the KS release period), but as Nifflas wrote earlier, this activity fluctuates with releases and with the popularity of whatever he's working on.

I think the source of the problem could be that we see the forum from a different perspective. As a user, your priority is probably to be entertained, to have fun, whatever that means to you personally. Commercial profit-oriented forums exploit this need greatly, by encouraging as much member activity as possible. However, a small community revolving around a single creative person has different priorities:

I see everything in a long perspective, there'll be ups and downs, some releases will be popular while other games won't be. Even the community will get smaller and larger. I'm not keeping track of wether it right now is getting smaller or bigger, but I'm not bothered about it.

Thus the concern of staff goes along the same lines. Our topmost priority is to make sure that the forum fulfills its purpose and that it works as it's supposed to. Fluctuating activity and the coming-and-going of members is something we take a note of, but not concerned about.

Of course it's also important that members are happy, by-and-large. So if you are unhappy about the current way of things and you think that more activity will solve it, feel free to suggest ideas; the chance that it will be done greatly depends on whether the idea fits within the framework of the forum's original purpose, and whether the results justify the scope of the work.



For example, an off-topic forum would be rejected outright. Ideas that solely depend on Nifflas are also something the staff cannot act upon, these are perhaps best PM-ed to Nifflas directly. But here is a good starting point:

Creating seemed to be the second major part of the forum besides dicussing Nifflas's games.

'Creating', in the framework of this forum means making stuff for Nifflas' games. What do we make?

  • Levels - we can't make a permanent section for these, too much work went into the Archive already
  • Tilesets/custom objects/backgrounds etc. These used have their own separate forum way back then. Now they're unofficially posted in Dev Showcase, mixed with other non-Nifflas stuff. We could bring these back to their own forum and with the increased visibility hopefully comes more activity. What do you think?
  • Assets for Knytt-WADF; user-made stuff for Nifflas' upcoming game. Right now they're uploaded directly to Nifflas outside the forum, so this activity is 'untapped', invisible to the community. If it gets its own place here in addition, it could bring about more ways you could participate (eg. helping others isolating objects, giving and receiving feedback, etc.)
  • your idea here! :)
« Last Edit: January 10, 2011, 10:01:43 by SiamJai »

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Offline egomassive

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Re: The community...
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2011, 15:06:57 »
The forum functionality is getting old. The most prominent posts are the latest rather than the most popular or important. There are no labels/tags for posts, so we don't have the easy searching that comes with them. And, the news section isn't a feed. The landing page is a big list and finding the good content takes sifting. I don't know what SMF is capable of, but the landing page should have a prominent feed telling what's popular on the forum, posts Nifflas starts, and important messages from the mods.

On the threads topic, the temporary level release threads are a problem. There are a lot of unanswered questions as to what will happen when the new archive arrives. Will they be made unavailable like the old forum? Will they be locked? Where and how will we discuss 3rd party levels after their releases? Some change will be made. Discussion of user made levels should be allowed on this forum. I think the changes that this forum will undergo due to the new archive should be decided now and enacted now. Thereby, some confusion and anxiety over the coming archive will be alleviated, and we can stop living with "temporary" on the forum.

So, I propose dropping the preview and release duality. Let's have one topic per user made level for any discussion on it from preview screens to post release bug reporting. In the future people who are only interested in completed levels can go directly to the archive.

Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #64 on: January 11, 2011, 00:35:04 »
Well I guess if the owner (nifflas) isn't bothered by it we shouldn't be either.

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Offline WreckSauce

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #65 on: January 11, 2011, 02:17:43 »
I came back.
May remember me as, Itsmehere.
Game just got old, people got bored and left. Happens with well, every game.
But people just need to make more levels for KS and those other new releases, I s'pose. (:

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Offline oskop

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #66 on: January 11, 2011, 20:13:11 »
Well, this post ended up disturbingly larger than expected.

I can't speak for the community in general, I've only become aware of the board recently. As far as Knytt Stories goes however, I do feel there's something of a wasted opportunity, or at least an incomplete project there. Obviously 2d gaming is alive and well throughout indie gamemaking circles and particularly in freeware games, so graphically and gameplay-wise a game like Knytt Stories is bound to have a long play-life, longer than it would on a console. The fact that people still play levels, and better yet that people still make (or begin...) levels is a good sign. Particularly because the conditions aren't great: there are lost levels, the level archive is very basic and uninformative and, to most people, largely unappealing; the topics themselves are somewhat disorganized with piles of unsorted levels and unfinished levels filling up space.

What's truly lacking is both a proper structure for organizing levels in an accessible and appealing level -- and the projected new level archive, whether still going or not, seems a way of adressing that -- and something regularly calls attention to the game itself. I disagree with comments about the issue being "novelty"; the proper determining difference it that when the level was released and written there was a large call of attention to it. The fact that to keep playing Knytt Stories now essentially means either randomly selecting dozens of unclassified levels or trawling through the board's archives hoping to sort the bad and the good means there's no easy, quick way of renewing play; the level archive could do this, but so could new level packs (like the ones originally released) that were produced on a regular basis either with custom content or as best-of collections; and sustained sharing and commenting on existing levels through an independent board, the level archive, or even a separate site. And I do think there are corners of game criticism and sharing on the web that would be open to divulging such packages, that would be open to easier, more widely appealing solutions.

None of this is necessarily easily made and would have more easily been implemented long ago, but I do think there's something to be said as to how Knytt Stories as a whole could have been constructed as a long-term, self-sustained, more publically oriented project. Something that is easily and immediately adressed now, is the issue of the contents of the levels made, the whats and whys of level-making. Some issues are harder to address -- people's lack of ability, resources, and imagination in producing new custom content can't be entirely chalked up to lazyness, and an open editing experience has to accept and cope with that, as well as genuine lack of designing abilities. I think it's hard to address these issues and I think sometimes it goes great (people were very honest and helpful with their criticism of my first level), and other times people have a hard time criticizing openly and productively. Something that I do think can be shifted is the difficulty of levels made, or more specifically the specific aims with which levels are made. I do think there's a good ammount of levels made by level designers for level designers; levels that are so thouroughly enthralled in exploring both the mechanics of the game and the most demanding playing skills that they end up as appealing to people who know the game inside out and hardly anyone else.

Not to be exclusively critical though; I say this precisely because I think that there are levels that don't just appeal as Knytt Stories levels, but that are appealing as games; levels that do such a good job at working with the system and the imaginary of the game that they both continue Nifflas's work and show other possibilities that would appeal, I think, to a lot of people if they had any idea there was that degree of quality there. This plays into the appeal (or lack of) of making them right now, even; I was prepared for my level to be played by two, three people, but it's easy to understand that most people aren't, and that undercuts the necessary income of people and new level-making to keep the game alive and well.

I think some of the things I've pointed out address how Knytt Stories could work better, ideally at least, and I think this could only have a positive impact on the board as a whole, since they do seem to make up an important part of it. I'm sorry for writing such a long post and I hope it's not too off-topic, I've just had these things on my mind for a while and, apparently, the rant has built up into this. If the post needs to be removed or copied onto a new thread where it would make more sense (which is standard practice in other boards I've accompanied), feel free to do so, sorry!

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Offline Miss Paula

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #67 on: January 11, 2011, 21:36:47 »
I find it perfectly fitting and there's no need to apologize for writing a lot; it's actually a nice change from posts that just throw a thought in the discussion without even caring for building a single complete sentence. X)

and you do have a point here and there, it's just, as you also said, not necessarily easily changeable or changeable at all anymore. I think. etc.

anyways I like the direction this thread has largely taken, away from pure whining. :P
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Offline Widget

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #68 on: January 12, 2011, 14:57:41 »
No need to apologise, that was a really interesting read.

I do think there's a good ammount of levels made by level designers for level designers; levels that are so thouroughly enthralled in exploring both the mechanics of the game and the most demanding playing skills that they end up as appealing to people who know the game inside out and hardly anyone else.

Interestingly, Dessgeega had something similar to say when COs were introduced. I'm not sure whether I'm too invested in KS to properly judge the situation but then I don't have much to add anyway  :P

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Offline oskop

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2011, 04:49:12 »
Yeah I'd read that post before -- it was one of the first things I came across when I discovered the game --, and there are strong points there. desgeega is on point on a lot of stuff as a writer, which is why it's a shame most of her posts are very short; I think she has a great understanding of videogames, and I think her levels show a great understanding of Knytt Stories too. They're the kind of levels I think it's a shame that people unfamiliar with KS won't play, even when I'm not fully convinced or entertained, they're great little exercices in design that show good gut and brains. Above all, they exemplify ways of working with the engine that work even if you're not overly familiar, or in love with, KS's basic gameplay and aesthetics; they pull of a nice balance between doing what the game just what the game does and at the same time feeling fresh, rather than covers of the original stories.

[Sorry, this was entirely off-topic. I write too much.]

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Offline SiamJai

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Re: The community...
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2011, 10:30:20 »
I don't know what SMF is capable of, but the landing page should have a prominent feed telling what's popular on the forum, posts Nifflas starts, and important messages from the mods.

There could be SMF extensions out there that do these already, but I'm not sure useful they'd be here. According to our stats, nearly all of the most popular topics here are forum-game related ("Corrupt a Wish" and the like). Important staff messages are already displayed prominently (News bar and the very first board of the forum, both above the fold). But you've got a point about exposing Nifflas' latest topics better.



On the threads topic, the temporary level release threads are a problem. There are a lot of unanswered questions as to what will happen when the new archive arrives. Will they be made unavailable like the old forum? Will they be locked? Where and how will we discuss 3rd party levels after their releases?

The first two questions are already answered in the temp forum descriptions: these forums will be removed once the archive is ready. So, no locking and such. Level discussions will happen at the archive, in the form of reviews and comments for each level.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2011, 10:52:06 by SiamJai »

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Offline egomassive

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Re: The community...
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2011, 12:04:24 »
@ SiamJai: Thanks for addressing me. I guess what I was really getting at is that we have plenty of Nifflas-centric entertainment going on here. It's just not presented in an appealing way. However, it works and it's easy to navigate.

...these forums will be removed once the archive is ready. So, no locking and such. Level discussions will happen at the archive, in the form of reviews and comments for each level.

Oh, haven't read that in a while. The idea that all of the discussion in those threads will vanish one day bugs me. It says, "if you don't mind," and I do mind, but not enough to stop posting levels. Will we really not have a proper place to discuss released levels here? It sounds like if you don't use the new archive then you don't get to talk about your levels. I for one plan to use the new archive, but I wont commit until I've seen it.

Don't get me wrong. It is a great idea to have all those levels in an archive. The forum doesn't have the capability. [needs citation] And, the new archive should fix most of the sort comings of the old one. But, until the new archive gets here the temporary threads are like big voids we keep throwing all our thoughts down.

  • Tilesets/custom objects/backgrounds etc. These used have their own separate forum way back then. Now they're unofficially posted in Dev Showcase, mixed with other non-Nifflas stuff. We could bring these back to their own forum and with the increased visibility hopefully comes more activity. What do you think?
  • Assets for Knytt-WADF; user-made stuff for Nifflas' upcoming game. Right now they're uploaded directly to Nifflas outside the forum, so this activity is 'untapped', invisible to the community. If it gets its own place here in addition, it could bring about more ways you could participate (eg. helping others isolating objects, giving and receiving feedback, etc.)

Both great ideas. The more readily resources are available, the more likely they'll inspire someone. Also, the main thing holding me back from contributing to Knytt-WaDF is that I have no clue what's already been done. For instance, I could have a great picture of a tree. How do I know that Nifflas doesn't already have 20 objects just like it?

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Offline LPChip

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Re: The community is dead :(
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2011, 12:12:13 »
Since the archive will be somewhat integrated into SMF (you can login with your same username and password), getting a link to the archive from the forum should make that gap less big.

Would you make topics on the forum about a level (other than being part of a list of levels) then you would have 2 places where the same discussion is being held.
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Offline egomassive

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Re: The community...
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2011, 03:58:28 »
Integration sounds fantastic! OK, no more complaints from me about the "temporary". Back to quietly waiting.

I know it's hypocritical for me to say this now, but I think letting this thread die would be good for community morale. Reading "The Community is Dead :(" again and again isn't good for us and it's a terrible message for newcomers. This topic has been great for discussing the forum and letting members air their feelings, but in the future we should keep our comments here to a minimum. Maybe start a new topic with a neutral title.

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Offline Miss Paula

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Re: Think the community's state is /worth discussing/?
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2011, 15:15:42 »
I had the same thought and agree etc. :P
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