Think the community's state is /worth discussing/?

Went to fish around on old threads before the "lock-the-hello/bye-threads" rule.
You should note that the quote titles do not lead to quoted posts, as these are from the previous forum which went all crashy-bye.

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I wonder if that explains it enough. Also should be noted that these quotes add up to perhaps a fifth of the whole thread, so there was even more of that stuff going on.
If they weren't locked now, I'd believe it wouldn't even get to page two without sidetracking into completely unrelated topics. And even if it didn't, how many people would you say needs to say "Hi! Welcome!" to a new person before it's enough? I wouldn't think a thread where every person on the forum basically posts the same thing over and over again would be a good idea either. Especially if you'd do it with every new person who enters the forum too.

Newer example. From "hi" to "Macs and KS level editors" in three replies

Personally, I prefer the community the way it is now. It's sleepy and laid back, and I come to this forum when I want to relax and not have to deal with internet morons on other, more active forums. Adding an off-topic board would most likely just bring that over here.

Isn't that kinda selfish, because its agreed that "more activity = better forum". And the only way to have more activity is to get more members to join and post topics, etc.
Also I wonder why the release of nightsky didn't skyrocket activity (even for a short time) for the forum...

As for the n00b thing and posting stupid things; give them a break, everybody was one once (I'm probably in the minority when I say I don't mind n00bs that much, though).

I also want to add that Niffchat is no substitute for a offtopic board because nobody goes on it nowadays.

Isn't that kinda selfish, because its agreed that "more activity = better forum".

"Agreed"? New to me. :-) 

I don't see anything selfish in simply stating one's preference either. Neither view could be claimed to stand for the 'common good'. The case could be (and has already been) made for either way as more beneficial than the other.

yeah, I admit I was kinda looking at a biased point of view, but to be honest I don't know why anyone would want a quiet, slow forum, and otherwise low-activity forum...

Maybe would be nice to have an introduction thread?

I liked my idea 


However, I remember I used to complain about no off-topic forum or no shoutbox and it would still be nice to have any of  those I don't see a dire need for it.
Yeah it sucks people leave and less activity but whatever really. And this discussion isn't moving forward anyway.

Various opinions here, and a slight note.

First, the note is; I haven't been logging in or visiting much, so it's completely fair to disregard this post entirely.

Okay, I think the overall point of this topic is sorta confused, just because no one can really decide on what -exactly- the 'ideal' forum activity could be. Nothing wrong with it, really, and varying (well expressed) opinions are always good! However, I personally would like to see a bit of more activity, but I think I may have expressed in an earlier post that it's pretty hard (and usually backfires or something) to -try- to make things popular or active... it is one of those things that 'just happen'...or don't.
So that said, the only thing I can really request/hope for really, is that members can be mature enough with intro/leaving postings so they don't need to be locked (right away, anyway). Of course that does seem to require they don't get locked before a few posts anyway, which simply doesn't happen. I really enjoy saying hello to someone new and maybe having a slight bit of general chat with them, since details in the post actually varies by a lot. I suppose it's fair to say "that's what #niffchat is for"... and you'd be right, but one has to admit that for a chatroom, it is even less chatty then here! Also important is the fact that the forum is more visible than the chatroom; and is persistent (the chatroom is real-time only, after all). I also can't imagine many people joining or leaving going to the chatroom that is pretty bare for more than a few minutes before (reasonably) deciding it isn't going to spark to life.

So....in basic terms... I'd either really like to see the chatroom take up more use for what the forum isn't for or have some offtopic-ness allowed. I think the mods would agree (and I do too!) that maybe getting #niffchat back on track would help the forum more than offtopic posts.
So, how possible would it be to try to encourage people to go to #niffchat instead of just locking it? I know that seems purpose-less because there isn't much to go to at the moment, but do it enough, and maybe people will check more often, thus making -that- more active, which will maybe solve some of the pleas for offtopic posts.
This is pretty much how it was, actually. The forum was very active, and so was the chat, and they compliment each other. Somewhere though, it seems that was lost in translation...

Anyway, sorry for the long post there, just wanted to offer my two-cents, if that helps at all.

...its agreed that "more activity = better forum".

Sorry, I don't agree.

I also want to add that Niffchat is no substitute for a offtopic board because nobody goes on it nowadays.

Could it be because everyone seems to have that attitude?
Not to mention that yesterday/today (on 12th) there was just ~400 lines of chatting. Which must be quite a feat, considering that nobody goes there!

...but one has to admit that for a chatroom, it is even less chatty then here!. I also can't imagine many people joining or leaving going to the chatroom that is pretty bare for more than a few minutes before (reasonably) deciding it isn't going to spark to life.

If people only decided to hang around even if there's no activity going on at the moment... It would build up and stuff would actually happen. Also, I can't really see how people join a chat and expect any chatting to happen without any effort put into it on their parts. It's unlikely for anyone to respond to you if you say nothing!

So....in basic terms... I'd either really like to see the chatroom take up more use for what the forum isn't for or have some offtopic-ness allowed. I think the mods would agree (and I do too!) that maybe getting #niffchat back on track would help the forum more than offtopic posts.

That's what it's there for. But nothing'll happen if everyone just thinks nobody else goes there and doesn't bother to even pop by.

So, how possible would it be to try to encourage people to go to #niffchat instead of just locking it? I know that seems purpose-less because there isn't much to go to at the moment, but do it enough, and maybe people will check more often, thus making -that- more active, which will maybe solve some of the pleas for offtopic posts.

Sounds like an idea. I shall be adding that into 'em lock messages, though I'm rarely the first one to catch 'em.

The advantage I see of an offtopic board over IRC is that there can be conversations about multiple things going at the same time and they won't interfere with each other. On IRC you could have multiple conversations, but it's confusing to have comments about something else mixed in with the thing you're talking about.
Also, on IRC a conversation that someone might be interested in could be over with by the time they notice, if they're on IRC at all when it occurs. On a forum the conversation stays there and people are free to come back to it any time.

Quote from: BloxMaster on April 12, 2011, 13:42:40

So, how possible would it be to try to encourage people to go to #niffchat instead of just locking it? I know that seems purpose-less because there isn't much to go to at the moment, but do it enough, and maybe people will check more often, thus making -that- more active, which will maybe solve some of the pleas for offtopic posts.

Sounds like an idea. I shall be adding that into 'em lock messages, though I'm rarely the first one to catch 'em.

I'll do that too.

This is a little bit like what I said a few pages back, but I still maintain that we have the type of forum we have here because of the type of people we have here.  This is a down to business forum.  Some people come for the games, play several, and move on having other things they would like to do than constantly chat about a game that may take 6 months to a year to complete.  THAT is the issue to me, why this forum is not as active as it might be.  Most of the people who stay are not merely waiting for a game, they are making something, either programing, using an editor, or quite literally making something with the forums, either a game or by moderating.  I think that is in fact how it should be.  If it is "slowly dying," something I do not believe is happening, it is simply because the game editors we have have lost there appeal (those who would use them have and are done).  Me, I'm still around (though I've not been here all that long) because I've simply not made all the games I've always wanted to and Knytt Stories is still the best game maker for my purposes.  The minute I find a game maker that works better for me... well, honestly my time on earth is short and I'll probably not be coming back much.  For now, I've got lots of ideas and no better way of making them, so even though I've only got an hour or two a week to work on stuff, I'm dedicated to it.

Now, IF you wanted to make the forums more active, you could attract more game player type people by having more games coming out more often, but that would require even more game makers than we currently have, or a way for the game makers to have more time to make games (which isn't going to happen for me at least).  So, if your going to talk about keeping the type of forum we have, but making it more active, it seems you need more game makers, or become more active game making yourself, if you can.  

What ways might more game makers be interested in coming here?  Well... ya know what?  I guess I'll throw my idea out on the board.  There's probably a better place for it, but here it is as briefly as I can state it, and maybe if people are interested I or someone can start a topic on it.  

I've been day dreaming of an ultimate game maker for a long time now that I would like to simply call Stories, in honor of KS, but without being chained to the idea of little people.  I know it would be programming intensive, but the idea would be to have a main shell that runs something like the KS editor, only the game maker has the option of varying almost all the constants, like size of play screen, size of character, size and resolution of tile sets and objects, etc.  Then, to the main shell would be the ability to add scripts or apps that any programmer could make which add extra characteristics to the game like new power ups, enemies, effects, etc.  If this where done right, you could have a basic game shell from which almost any type of game could be easily made simply by editing the right constants and adding the right scripts.  IMHO, this would be a magnet for people who are just dying for the opportunity to create there own game, but don't have the expertise.  Ahem, people like me.  And with the game makers come the game players and excessive forum activity.  So, if you build it, they will come.  

That's my thoughts at least.  Sorry for uber post.  

Isn't that kinda selfish

It's just an opinion, no need to bash me for it.

because its agreed that "more activity = better forum".

Plenty's been said on this already, but I'll just point out that 4chan is an excellent example of how quantity does not imply quality.

As for the n00b thing and posting stupid things; give them a break, everybody was one once (I'm probably in the minority when I say I don't mind n00bs that much, though).

Please don't put words in my mouth. I was saying that young players (generally those in the 6-14 age range) often favor random discussion, and that off-topic boards provide this. The problem occurs when you find certain people who only seem to post in off-topic board threads, effectively turning the forum into an all-purpose chat one. There are enough places for that without us drawing in users who will only check one board that has nothing to do with the rest of the forum. Yes, some of them may check other boards as well, but I don't think they'll be checking them all, and when they're done talking in them they'll simply default back to the off-topic board.

This brings up another point: Adding an off-topic board is by no means guaranteed to attract more users. It may keep them here (and as I said above, the way it does that may invite other problems), but there is nothing to suggest that adding an off-topic board will cause an influx of members. It's not like people join normally forums specifically to chat in the off-topic board, after all; they usually join them to talk about the thing(s) the forum is centered around, and only after that do they head to the off-topic board.

yeah, I admit I was kinda looking at a biased point of view, but to be honest I don't know why anyone would want a quiet, slow forum, and otherwise low-activity forum...

Personally, I prefer the community the way it is now. It's sleepy and laid back, and I come to this forum when I want to relax and not have to deal with internet morons on other, more active forums.

I like how you said you couldn't imagine why anyone would prefer a low-activity forum right after you replied to a post where I explained why I would.

I've been day dreaming of an ultimate game maker for a long time now that I would like to simply call Stories, in honor of KS, but without being chained to the idea of little people.  I know it would be programming intensive, but the idea would be to have a main shell that runs something like the KS editor, only the game maker has the option of varying almost all the constants, like size of play screen, size of character, size and resolution of tile sets and objects, etc.  Then, to the main shell would be the ability to add scripts or apps that any programmer could make which add extra characteristics to the game like new power ups, enemies, effects, etc.  If this where done right, you could have a basic game shell from which almost any type of game could be easily made simply by editing the right constants and adding the right scripts.  IMHO, this would be a magnet for people who are just dying for the opportunity to create there own game, but don't have the expertise.  Ahem, people like me.  And with the game makers come the game players and excessive forum activity.  So, if you build it, they will come.

Honestly, this is not possible. The more advanced you make this, the bigger the learning curve is. But effectively, you are talking about something like MMF or Game maker. They're like a big level editor with enough customization to do everything. Knytt Stories is still a game with a level editor, so making it more customizable to become a game maker will not happen. Either the tool is so advanced and not linked to a game and become like MMF, or its linked to a game, and thus become limited.

But if you want a game with a more flexible level editor, then you'll get something like FiNCK, and you'll notice that the level editing becomes harder. It is either easy aka Knytt Stories but limited, or hard aka Saira and more flexible. There's no in between.

don't you love it when someone "dissects" your post?

This brings up another point: Adding an off-topic board is by no means guaranteed to attract more users. It may keep them here (and as I said above, the way it does that may invite other problems), but there is nothing to suggest that adding an off-topic board will cause an influx of members. It's not like people join normally forums specifically to chat in the off-topic board, after all; they usually join them to talk about the thing(s) the forum is centered around, and only after that do they head to the off-topic board.

anyways, like I said before : the only legitimate way to gain members is for nifflas to release a successful game. I wasn't around that time, but I imagine when nifflas released wadf and/or ks a huge amount of members came.

Personally I don't think PickYerPoison really means to dissect your post as much as he just wants to clarify what he means, which I think is what several people have been trying to do..

I thank you J, and SiamJai for using my advice, and I hope it works out. Also I have been corrected slightly; the chat isn't as empty as I had made it seem in my prior post.
As for getting legitimate members... I personally can't say any specific method is a legitimate way to get members. And to me, only members that have made posts can really count for activity, which is part of what is being debated on. Game releases may cause a lot of members to join, but maybe only half will post, but that's not the only real way to get a member to join, since people don't have to really join right after a game is released...

I think, as an extra note, I would prefer it if there was more activity overall, however, I say that with the understanding that I'd really rather prefer that random offtopic-ness was kept to a minimum. That is, it either goes to the chat or stays in specific areas of the forum. I don't really enjoy seeing posts that don't have any value at all to the subject at hand, although I admit I'm biased to the extent that if it was meaningful or at least related somehow, it is fine. Additionally, I don't think the problem is really lack of off-topic-ness areas as much as it is that no one is making enough content for Nifflas' games to comment on. That's what's causing the lack of activity and that's not really the forum's fault...

But if you want a game with a more flexible level editor, then you'll get something like FiNCK, and you'll notice that the level editing becomes harder. It is either easy aka Knytt Stories but limited, or hard aka Saira and more flexible. There's no in between.

In my opinion, FiNCK's editor isn't harder to use because it's "more flexible".  I find it far less flexible than KS, actually.  FiNCK's editor is hard to use because Nifflas never intended to spend enough time on development to make an editor as user-friendly and flexible as KS.  He had an editor that was good enough for him to develop the game with, and he released it without making it more user-friendly.  Being able to see what the level looks like in the editor itself, like with KS, would have made a huge difference.  Also being able to change more things about the objects (like their colors) would have made level-editing more flexible so there could be a great variety of levels.  These were simply things Nifflas didn't have time to do, they weren't limitations dictated by the nature of the game.


Anyway, this discussion is split between people who want a more active "community" (i.e. centered around the games--making levels, tilesets, etc.) and people who just want a more active forum for its own sake.  As far as a game-centered community goes, there's no way to force that.  Nifflas isn't going to make a specific kind of game just because people think that type of game would generate forum activity.  But hopefully KnyttWaDF will have a nice level editor like KS and there will be lots of people making levels and stuff like there was with KS.

As far as generating forum activity itself, I think it's funny that there is a debate over whether to have a "general" forum, because from my perspective there are already tons of subforums that have nothing to do with the games.  I've only ever checked the game-related forums and pretty much ignored all the ones that are currently under "General" and "Being Creative" which to me already seem like general, off-topic forums.  So I don't know why it's controversial whether to have one more subforum like that, when there are already so many.