Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)

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Zydragazum

Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« on: September 05, 2010, 07:02:31 »
Hello Nifforum. C)

You know me as the guy working on that cool new level, found here: http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=3685.0

No, it is not dead. I simply haven’t been getting feedback - that’s all. Know that I have been actively working on it for quite some time now and have been putting in a lot of effort into the screens I’ve made. Of course, the ideas in my head simply can’t be fully transferred to the Level Editor due to the limits of the KS 1.2.1 engine. So I began to dream.

Please don’t get any negative impressions simply from the title of the thread. This is neither a demand nor a plan to be put into an action. I was feeling idealistic and began to conceptualize a sequel to the critically acclaimed KS. An excellent review that I watched today can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpnGL3ggGFk. This outlines a lot of the great features that good ol’ Nifflas implemented to make a successful game.

I guess the new KS could generically be called “Knytt Stories 2”, or a fancy subtitle could be added instead. It would be pre-packed with a large level, similar in size to “The Machine”. The game would not come with 255 tilesets, unlike its predecessor, but it would at least come with about thirty. Approximately twenty of these would be used in the level, and ten would be color or style variants of some of those twenty.

This is a list of features I drafted up. Very few of them involve engine changes - many are actually level editor changes. This is crucial as it gives more power to the community in terms of content creation.

Critters
  • All critters from the original KS will be implemented into the editor.
  • Custom critters can be created from the original KS critters, which serve as "behavioral" templates.
  • Custom critters will only be visually original. Behavior will be determined by the behavior of the critter it was made from.
  • For example, if a new flower was made from the rose, it could have a new appearance and different animations, but it would still only attack when approached and would have a slow rate of fire.

Items & Power-ups
  • The graphics for items and power-ups can be changed.

Keys and Blocks
  • The editor comes only with one key block and key, both being colorless.
  • These two objects are templates. New key blocks can be created with different colors.
  • The editor will automatically create a corresponding key using the same color palette.
  • The avoid clutter, a maximum of eight blocks may be created (the editor can also only create a maximum of eight corresponding keys).

Ghost Objects
  • The editor can be used to create custom ghost objects.
  • Another object in the banks can be selected. The editor will automatically desaturate all frames and adds a varying transparency filter for flickering effects.

Music and Ambiance
  • Music can be looped.

Nature Effects
  • "Leaf", "Rain", and "Dust" colorless templates are present and can be used to create color variants.
  • This is important because "rain" is often used to illustrate leaks and many tilesets feature trees of colors that current leaf effects do not fit.

Water
  • There are now three types of water.
  • Hostile water causes death upon impact, like in the original KS.
  • Passive water allows swimming on the surface, like in KE.
  • Active water allows control identical to that on ground, except with a reduced speed.
  • Water can be edited in the Level Editor. A base water tile template that is colorless and opaque comes with the editor.
  • The editor can create new water from this template, and can change the transparency, color, and height. Maximum height is the peak of the water animation, in which case, a full tile is produced.
  • Waterfalls and shallow waters can also be edited.
  • Particle effects are present when passive/active water is jumped into. Furthermore, a new water "splash" object exists that can be used where waterfalls make contact with the ground.

Pros
  • Would make level creation much easier and more convenient. This increases efficiency.
  • Could jump-start activity in Knytt Stories communities.
  • Could lead to more innovative concepts of different objects.
  • For example, a general statement for now is that custom water differing in color and transparency is impressive when done right. See Mashu Prapa by Salmoneus, x967y1001.
  • With the implementation of the new water features, different styles of water could be innovated. See Homeland by Farik, x1011y1000.

Cons
  • Would take a while to put into effect (i.e. programming requirements, etc.)
  • The number of possible mistakes to make when using the editor would increase since many more features would be available.

You may have noticed that I don't have many features relating to events like shifts, flags, signs, etc. This is because I don't much experience with those objects. If you guys want to add such ideas - go ahead!

So do I have pictures? Well, no, not really. But I can always try drawing a new Level Editor GUI if it makes you feel better.

Finally: It was only after I thought about this and wrote of it that I learned that people took on Knytt Experiment as more of a KS Clone rather than another project. This is not my intention, and Nifflas has my condolences for his loss of motivation.

Thanks for reading. That's just my two cents, and a small update on my level. :)
« Last Edit: September 05, 2010, 07:05:32 by Zydragazum »

Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2010, 07:20:15 »
  • Could jump-start activity in Knytt Stories communities.
Wrong! Could jump start activity in Knyt Stories 2 communities, as the two would, more likely than not, be incompatible.
Lurk more.

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Zydragazum

Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2010, 07:27:27 »
I guess I didn't specify enough. >< By KS communities, I just meant general Knytt communities. This includes KS, KS2, KE, and KN.

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Offline AClockworkLemon

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2010, 15:21:55 »
Sounds like it could turn out interesting. After finishing off work on AfterDark,I think I will be willing to start work on the clockwork engine again. If there is enough community support out there, I am happy to turn it into something along the lines of what you have outlined there. Note - I use game maker, and the KS source is MMF2, so I will literally be developing from scratch.

Sorry if tying is a little shoddy,posing off an iPod at 11PM
I'm not dead. Not entirely. And yes, I'm embarrassed by most of the posts I made here.
:hiddenstar: - From Pumpkinbot

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Offline Pick Yer Poison

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2010, 17:08:26 »
This is a very interesting idea. Several of the features there are things I've found myself wanting at one point or another. The only thing that's not on the list that I can think of off the top of my head would be adding more than three shifts or signs.

Wrong! Could jump start activity in Knyt Stories 2 communities, as the two would, more likely than not, be incompatible.

I'm a bit worried something like this might happen, though. Part of the interesting part of Knytt Stories levels is how the creators have come up with innovative solutions to problems while working within the limits of the editor.

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Offline Headgrinder

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2010, 13:31:07 »
The primary thing I keep wanting is the ability to make the 8 layers of the game into whatever type of layer you want.  Ie, tile layer on 6, crash layer on 5, object layer on 4, and 3-0 all background tiles would be a set I would use a lot. 

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Offline Pick Yer Poison

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2010, 18:17:29 »

Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2010, 03:45:40 »
Lurk more.

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Offline Headgrinder

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2010, 13:13:27 »
That's the word.  Crash, collision, crush... whatever.   :D

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Offline egomassive

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2010, 17:49:27 »
This topic has really had me thinking. Rather than wishing for what KS doesn't have, I try to develop clever ways to do what I want with what's provided. So, in response to Zydragazum's opening post. I've compiled a lengthy comment on what is already possible, and how I think improvements could be added.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

While we're dreaming up possibilities. Here's my wish list.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

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Offline sergiocornaga

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2010, 11:42:18 »
Layer 6.5: In the same vein as what Headgrinder was saying, I want to use tiles in front of Juni. Tiles as CO's is cumbersome and they blink on screen entry revealing what's behind.

I think a foreground layer based on tilesets may be impossible, based on something Nifflas said early in the development of Knytt Stories. I could be wrong, though. Also, in my competition entry I went to some insane lengths to hide the blinking thing... but it happens with all objects, custom or not, so maybe it's something I should just accept.

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Offline Ultigonio

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2010, 16:15:07 »
Layer 6.5: In the same vein as what Headgrinder was saying, I want to use tiles in front of Juni. Tiles as CO's is cumbersome and they blink on screen entry revealing what's behind.

I think a foreground layer based on tilesets may be impossible, based on something Nifflas said early in the development of Knytt Stories. I could be wrong, though. Also, in my competition entry I went to some insane lengths to hide the blinking thing... but it happens with all objects, custom or not, so maybe it's something I should just accept.
With the screen-switch animation technique, it's generally probably at least somewhat possible to hide the blinking, but I can't think of any instance otherwise.  It doesn't ALWAYS happen, depending on whether or not the game is running at "perfect" speed, I believe, but even then....

The ghost object suggestion is perfect for an idea I wanted to work on.  My main want, though, would be movable COs.  Even ones that just move one single direction would be fine.  Collision properties for said COs would also be nice--if you wanted to simulate racing, for instance, you have a CO run a certain speed across the screen, and if it gets there first, you lose!  But that's a little much.

Also, to egomassive, I actually loved the idea of fall death in KSA, BUT it should have been possible to toggle in an editor of some sort.
EDIT:  Wait, you can flag check for powerups?
*Checks editor*
Oh my gosh you can.  This changes everything.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 16:22:23 by Ultigonio »
Indefinitely Held Off:
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This Level Plays Itself!

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Offline egomassive

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Re: Knytt Stories 2 (Conceptual)
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2010, 22:26:34 »
@Sergiocornaga: I should have mentioned this before. The best solution I have for "blink" is to put the object in the tiles. If the object is stationary (e.g. a column), then put a tile version on layer 2 as well. It works perfectly as long is Juni isn't behind the object. If the object is moving (e.g. water), then make a tile that covers everything that won't be revealed as the object moves. This isn't as effective but it's better than having a whole lake disappear for a moment. Distraction is also useful when hiding blink. For instance, when shifting between identical screens with rain, a lightning flash on the new screen can effectively cover the rain resetting. A best practice is to avoid using animated objects where Juni shifts to identical screens.

I looked around after making my wish list. I found strong opposition to ideas about more layers, but none of it was convincing. I'm sure all my questions could be answered if this site didn't have amnesia. I downloaded the MMF2 demo. I'm finding my own answers.

@Ultigonio: I was surprised to learn something new about KS myself last week. It's full of subtleties that only experience can help you master. That's why we love it though.