Minds, dimentions, and the potential of Knytt Stories

I thought I would through this topic out real quick and see where it goes.

I love any kind of fantasy/sci-fi/horror/etc which questions the boundaries between mind and reality, and how reality can layer and twist rather than simply layout flat.  When I found the first Knytt Stories by Nifflas, that Metroid style (one of my other favorites) of one area leading to a completely different area, as if contrasting worlds where stacked atop each other, I knew I found a home for my creative exploits. 

Lately, I've noticed several levels which test the boundaries of mind and space, and I just wanted to see who out their is here for that reason, and what their thoughts are about it.  What are your favorite movies, stories, etc?  What experiences have you had that led you down that road?  Are you as grateful as I am to find a relatively easy way to create your worlds?  What do we build are ideas on and why?  Do we all need counseling and medication?   

Wow, 38 views, 5 days, and no replies.  I guess I'll assume that those who would agree with these statements answer simply by making more games rather than intelecualizing it. 

I guess I'll assume that those who would agree with these statements answer simply by making more games rather than intelecualizing it. 

Well, there's that too  But I think the main reason you're not getting replies is that most people do not approach KS level creation (and video games in general) that seriously. For me it boils down to choosing between a plot-oriented approach and what you might call mood-oriented approach (yeah, I cringed a bit there, sorry). The first allows for complex storylines if you can handle those, and wonderfully detailed worlds, yet the psychological/reality-twisting element will suffer even if you try your best. The other approach is just the opposite; you can create the most exquisite and detailed world to illustrate passing from one state of mind to another, but you can't quite compensate with a complex plot - it would divert the player's attention.

I only use the second approach because I'm no good at complex storytelling; no good at storytelling in general. So my levels are mostly about worlds and moods; occasionally I succeed at adding a plot element which elevates the whole thing to a new level, but I don't think I've ever done that well. In Pestilence it was too blunt, not subtle enough, and Middle of Nowhere was too depressing and too difficult for most people to even finish it, let alone to think of it as a (depressing) way of looking at the world. Which it was, really, just in form of a difficult KS level... 

Not sure how favorite movies and stories fit in here, but I guess the best films by my favorite director, David Lynch, are perfect illustrations of the "boundaries between mind and reality, and how reality can layer and twist rather than simply layout flat" thing. Mulholland Drive, Eraserhead, The Straight Story, etc. I also can't help thinking, in context of this discussion, of some sci-fi novels by Iain Banks which attempt to mix complex storylines and serious psychological content; I'm not sure how successful they are at this, though. Even his best and/or most complex sci-fi books (Use of Weapons, Look to Windward, Matter,..) to my mind can't compare with some of his "normal" fiction, such as The Bridge, which has a simple enough plot, but explored beautifully in all shades of reality and mind. Still, the sci-fi books are fantastic stuff.

Very nice, thanks for the response.  

I actually quite agree with your plot verses mood idea, and don't cringe at all.  A mood is a powerful thing, like a song or a painting, which alone can create spasms of insight and introspection, or prolonged pensiveness.  I think the way to combine the two is with vagueness in the story.  Just hint at what is going on and tie the story in deeply with the mood and visuals.  To me there is a place a game, story, or movie can get to which makes it extra insightful or provoking, where it asks the player/viewer to think outside the box and challenge their preconceived notions of reality and life.  That's what I'm looking for.  

I just recently played your "Pestilence" and thought it got pretty close actually.  I actually need to write a review of that on its thread...  And yeah, I could never finish Middle of Nowhere.  

I have some books to read!  I'll have to check those out.  I think another way of doing what I'm talking about is simply stories that explore philosophical and metaphysical ideas in a symbolic way.  I love Frank Herbert's stuff for this.

I haven't seen a whole lot of David Lynch, but I've seen much of the Twin Peaks series, which certainly does what I'm talking about.  Other movies that hint at this would be 12 Monkeys, Paprika (an anime), Fight Club to some extent, and an amazing movie called The Fountain.  

And as for games, I think the Silent Hill series does this wonderfully, though I frankly don't like to play the games.  I find the violence mindless and boring, but the story and the way it unfolds in each episode is pretty brilliant.  And in another way, the Submachine and Daymare series by Mateusz Skutnik does this quite beautifully as well.  I can think about the implications of those games hours after playing them.   

So yeah, I guess not many people play games that way, but it sure seems that a lot of people here do.  

Thanks again for the reply.  I was feeling lonely.  

But I think the main reason you're not getting replies is that most people do not approach KS level creation (and video games in general) that seriously.

Psha. I take Knytt Stories level creation very seriously, when I'm actually doing it. I'd venture to say much more than typical editors, but I'm not one to inflate my ego.
I think another reason this person isn't getting replies is because most people do not really pay the forum much mind lately, myself included.

As for you, "Headgrinder", you asked a lot of questions and people typically become less inclined to answer questions when they're given in a jumble like that. I'm not really interested in answering the questions, especially the last one, but I'll say some stuff here.
I like several movies and stories, such that I have no idea how I'd answer a question asking for my "favorite". I mean, really, you could like one story for one reason and a different story for a different reason. If you want author suggestions, I'll suggest Neil Gaiman and Orson Scott Card. What experiences brought me down this "road"? I don't even know what that means. I read stories because I liked to read. I don't know how grateful you are that the Knytt Stories Level Editor exists, but I doubt I am as grateful since I've rarely found interesting levels made with it. "We" (people?) build our ideas on our experiences because we have nothing else to build them on.

You speak with truth and cynicism, thank ye kindly.  It always does boil down to experience.  Sorry you didn't like the delivery of the questions, they're just there to spark a conversation, but thanks for responding to me anyway.  And yeah, Card is amazing.  

This actually reminds me of a topic I read in the Computer Music magazine. They had the same question but formed in a different perspective.

Programmer vs musician. Its the programmer who makes the tools for musician, but often the programmer can't really make music, but finds a field where money can be made. Occasionally a musician attempts to create sound tools themselves, which usually become great products because the musician makes the tool based upon experience in features he/she misses in what currently is available to him.

I suppose we level creators have the same. There's the kind who makes levels, just to please others, but a handfull makes levels because they miss this kind of feel or idea in a level and want to fill that gap!

I just recently played your "Pestilence" and thought it got pretty close actually.  I actually need to write a review of that on its thread...  And yeah, I could never finish Middle of Nowhere.  

I think Purple Pineapple and SecretGlitch were the only ones who finished it 

I have some books to read!  I'll have to check those out.  I think another way of doing what I'm talking about is simply stories that explore philosophical and metaphysical ideas in a symbolic way.  I love Frank Herbert's stuff for this.

Oh yeah, Herbert's amazing. I haven't read anything other than the Dune series, since nothing else is available in my country, but yeah, some of the best novels I've ever read. I just think his language is sometimes a bit, you know, too dry; the books kind of tend to become treatises on various aspects of the human condition. But I still love them 

And as for games, I think the Silent Hill series does this wonderfully, though I frankly don't like to play the games.  I find the violence mindless and boring, but the story and the way it unfolds in each episode is pretty brilliant.  And in another way, the Submachine and Daymare series by Mateusz Skutnik does this quite beautifully as well.  I can think about the implications of those games hours after playing them.   

Hey, thanks for the recommendations. I'm enjoying the early Submachine games now

Thanks again for the reply.  I was feeling lonely.  

You're welcome  Maybe when Jigganis returns to the forum he'll be interested too!

You speak with truth and cynicism, thank ye kindly.  It always does boil down to experience.  Sorry you didn't like the delivery of the questions, they're just there to spark a conversation, but thanks for responding to me anyway.  And yeah, Card is amazing.  

Oh yes, I am perhaps the cynic. It is surprising that I sought out the meaning of life in "Teenhmifnoeafgil".
You're welcome anyway. I honestly don't care enough to dislike the questions, and really the lack of replies here is probably more likely the relative silence of the forum than the cynical stuff I said.

Interestingly enough, making KS levels with "deep meanings" can be both incredibly easy and frustratingly difficult. It's as easy to miss the mark by making the message too blatant as it is to make it too ambiguous to be noticed. If you do things right, you don't even need to put a message in it, and people will still think it has some deep meaning. For example, take my level Darkness. It started out as a small experiment with blacked-out tilesets, and ended up looking like it was almost a metaphor for something. Almost.

Interestingly enough, making KS levels with "deep meanings" can be both incredibly easy and frustratingly difficult. It's as easy to miss the mark by making the message too blatant as it is to make it too ambiguous to be noticed. If you do things right, you don't even need to put a message in it, and people will still think it has some deep meaning. For example, take my level Darkness. It started out as a small experiment with blacked-out tilesets, and ended up looking like it was almost a metaphor for something. Almost.

I definitely didn't get any whiffs of even a story in Darkness, much less an underlying metaphor. It seems like levels work like House of Leaves: You don't actually need to put any meaning in the text, as long as you give the reader a thousand clues as to what the meaning is. Fantastic book, by the way.

@Antikythera:  Wow, House of Leaves sounds interesting from what I read from good old wikipedia.  There is a crazy book that reminds me of with an almost incoherent writing style called The Female Man.  It's a brain twisting hoot, look it up on wikipedia.

@Pick Yer Poison:  Holy crap!  I just took a quick god-glance (the editor) at Darkness and realized I've never actually finished it!  I'll be playing that asap. 

I think the issue of deep meaning/metaphor is very dependent on the player.  It seems that in the glance at Darkness I had, that I saw lots of meaning in it, yet on the other hand Antikythera has a point in that it is the kind of level that it gives the player clues of meaning, but no meaning itself.  I'm not sure I've ever made that distinction!  My imagination finds metaphor in lots of things it was not intended to be in, but I never before considered that the metaphors I see in a lot of Knytt Stories levels might simply be my imagination taking the lead of the pieces of the level. 

So, I guess my thought is that, yes, if you do it right, Knytt Stories lends itself quite nicely to a playground of POTENTIAL metaphors for the mind to roam around in.  The tilesets often have little clues of meaning that the fertile mind can germinate and grow. 

That's really cool.  I've never thought of that before.

@yohji:  Herbert can be difficult at times, yes, but always worth it.  If you do get a chance, read some of his other works as well.  If you buy books, or do audio books, I'm sure you could get them online or at Audible.com.  And Submachine!  Oooohooohooo... talk about a game that makes your mind bend in knots!

@LPChip: yeah, good thoughts.  I think I'm the latter.  Certainly I'm spending a great deal of my limited time to develop the perfect tilesets for my own work, and I feel almost like I NEED to make it more than I want to.