Consider me a bit dissapointed.

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Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« on: August 23, 2010, 01:00:54 »
So after a bit of a debate with myself I purchased the game.
That was two hours ago, and I just finished it.
Now don't get me wrong, it was a great deal of fun. But I can't shake this ripped off feeling.
I mean seriously? 2 hours? I paid 10$ for this game. I'm not cheap or anything but it strikes me odd to pay 10$ for 2 hours of gameplay, especially with the low replay value (I'm really not into improving my score in square dodge, thankyou).
Also I figured there would more chpaters, what with the option to select and all. I know it's meant for fan created content but searching around the forum I didn't find any of this.
And I read on some posts that the editor is largely unsupported. what.
It's not that I regret the purchase, it's just that I feel somewhat cheated.
And that's all.

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Offline LPChip

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2010, 01:26:10 »
There are commercial games that you can finish under 4 hours and they cost 50$.
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Offline Yukabacera

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2010, 01:28:48 »
LP, please stop screaming "Commercial games are bad!" into everyone's face. Your opinion isn't everyone's opinion.

Oh and, Fizzbach: there are several Saira levels/episodes in the works right now, but you have to understand these are incredibly complex and take a long time to make. Be patient and you'll get more gameplay. Besides, 10 bucks isn't really that expensive.

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2010, 01:41:19 »
@LP: Yeah well, I don't even bother with those. Indie games tend to be a lot more worthwhile (and I'm not talking about money).

@I agree it's not a lot of money, but I'm very pickey with the games I buy otherwise I'll waste all my money on games. So when I finally release my iron grip over my wallet I hope what I buy will last me some time, or at least more time then an afternoon.
And when you say levels/episode are in the making, do you mean the original team is working on it or do you talk about fan made content?

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Offline Yukabacera

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2010, 01:42:37 »
Nifflas said he won't release any more Saira episodes, so yes, I mean fan-made ones.

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Offline BloxMaster

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2010, 02:42:20 »
Actually I remember several posts where Nifflas said he might release more episodes later on, and none to the contrary that said "No, I'm done with Saira"

Yukabacera about your first post: I agree with LPChip, and even if I didn't, I still wouldn't agree with your post. I don't think LPChip is "screaming" nor implying anything. He's simply stating facts that people don't like to hear. I felt your post, on the other hand, at least the first part of it, was rather rude. I'm not LPChip but personally I'd be rather annoyed!

On the related note, though; I thought Saira was just the right length for a single episode. That's completely subjective of course. Consider, though, the quality of the game, and not just the length. It may only take you a few hours to beat it, but if you really enjoyed it, that makes it more worth the money. Also consider that when you buy a game, you are not just buying the game- you are supporting the developers. Frankly that in itself is worth the money, because Nifflas has a lot of great games!


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Offline Yukabacera

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2010, 02:54:15 »
Of course you don't agree with me: I'm questioning Master LPChip's supreme, totalitarian rule.

And I quite clearly remember Niff saying that he won't release any more Saira episodes. Of course he's not "done" with the game, he'll probably keep releasing updates and new versions and such.

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Offline J

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2010, 06:31:59 »
And I quite clearly remember Niff saying that he won't release any more Saira episodes. Of course he's not "done" with the game, he'll probably keep releasing updates and new versions and such.
I really like Saira though, and someday I might continue expanding that world too!
I'm guessing you're basing your claim on this post..? Or if some other, feel free to point us to it. ;)

Though I wouldn't say it's highly likely. Seems like he likes to work more on new projects/games, and he's too full of ideas to find a blank moment after releasing a new game. But I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Of course you don't agree with me: I'm questioning Master LPChip's supreme, totalitarian rule.
To be frank, he didn't say "Commercial games are bad", you did. He said that there ARE commercial games which you can finish under the matter of handful of hours, with much higher cost. Not that every commercial game is such. But I'm certain you have solid evidence to counter that fact.

Also, you're questioning somewhat evident facts. Not a "totalitarian rule". This chart could be useful to keep in mind. ;)
"flipping around like an idiot" -- Paula

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Offline Nifflas

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2010, 09:07:35 »
Game design is all about compromises. When I created Knytt Stories, I was able to create a much larger world, thanks for the simple graphics. With Saira's puzzles, animation, graphics, and sounds, I couldn't extend the play time a lot. We were mainly two guys doing all the main work, me for 6-8 hours per day over a full year, to create that short episode. I really put all my energy and soul into into creating something really good.

Then, of course, it's impossible to please everyone. I made Saira shorter so I could spend more time on atmosphere and graphics in it. Some people appreciated that about the game while others didn't. I've heard people saying that Saira is well worth the money (some saying it's really cheap considering what you get for it), and at the other hand there's people who regret paying for a game that turned out to be so difficult or short. For every game I've released, I've received positive and negative reviews. Of course, the people who turn out not to like it will always feel cheated as they paid for it, and the only way to fix that is either to create a game so good that everybody will like it, or set the price so low that no disappointed person will feel they lost something. Unfortunately, the first option is impossible (I'm simply not that good), and the second option could never support my game development. Also, the website itself only points out the full version contains four more planetary systems, I didn't promise anything else. Perhaps I need to state that more clearly somewhere though. I just put the multiple episode support in the game in case I want to do another in the future, or in case someone else wants to. That doesn't mean I plan to right now.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm sorry that you didn't find it worth your money and I wish I could make it so good that you would enjoy it more rather than feeling cheated, but this is bound to happen to some people everytime I release a game. However, I'm more than happy with the general feedback I've received for Saira, and I think $10 is a good price for it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 09:25:13 by Nifflas »

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Offline Dj Gopher

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2010, 14:30:59 »
I hate to say that I had a similar feeling, but I quickly tossed it out..
The problem I think is that the demo is too generous, it should be more of just a teaser that forces you to buy the game..
I understand the time and effort that went into it, and greatly appreciate it, and would gladly donate to nifflas - if I get a game, even better.
I just feel that there was so much available in the demo that it made the bought version seem unworthy of the 10 dollars..
I would of gladly paid 20 for the whole game, though.

For future reference, the non-freeware games (in my opinion) should have demos that allow a maximum of 10-15 minutes of playtime that make the user beg for more.
If I couldn't leave past lomond I would have gone insane and bought the full version without a second of question..
Letting me get an ending sort of let my hype die down..

There's truly nothing bad to say about saira.. other than it's marketing techniques :D

(By the way, by far in my top 2-3 favorite games of all time :D )

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Offline Nifflas

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2010, 17:09:18 »
The problem with a small demo is that it works best with more marketing. Even small teams usually have more resources than me to deal with that, so I had to make the game market itself. The advantage of a bigger demo is that it spreads the game better. In the end, it's still the same amount of money, and the same amount of game, but now people get to try more of it before they buy. The problem with a really short demo would be that people wouldn't know the game difficulty, which means I'd get a lot more "I paid $10 for a game that's just way too hard" instead, and considering that the difficulty have been some people's main issue about the game (people aren't used to difficult games in the 2000's), I think that could have been even more of a problem.

Samorost 2 did this same thing, the demo is one chapter, while the full game contains two. Getting the second chapter is $5, and it does only really contain four "rooms" that you beat in 30-60 minutes or something. I never saw a problem in paying for that though, because I really enjoyed it.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 17:17:46 by Nifflas »

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Offline LPChip

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2010, 17:45:54 »
Nifflas, you're underestimating the marketing you already have. Saira got lots of attention through your site and forum, but also lots of reviews on several indy gaming websites. Really, marketingwise, you've got a fanbase.
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Offline Nifflas

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2010, 18:08:41 »
Yeah, but unfortunately it's not large enough. Saira would never have been a success at all if I didn't get it up on Steam, and the Steam release isn't even something I planned from the start, so based on what I knew back then, I had the right thinking. And again, the difficulty thing...

Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2010, 03:09:08 »
So I've been away from home for the last 2 days and I was surprised by the amount of attention this thread got.
So first I'd like to thank you all and point out this is the most helpful and active support forum I got to see.

Bloxmaster, about what you said about supporting the developer... I guess I wasn't clear of that but that was my first reason for buying the game (Except for the intention of playing it etc.). I could have just as easily downloaded the game illeagaly, like I normally do. Yep, I pirate. Sue me.
But I just loved everything about this game from the first second of the demo.
I liked the fluid platforming, the intresting puzzles, the silly minigame, and especially the the plot and general atmosphere.
And when I put it like this... yeah, it was definitely worth the 10$. It's not about the money like it's about how I just wish there was more of the game, just because it's such a great game.

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Offline Nifflas

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Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2010, 22:27:44 »
Actually, I wish it was longer too :) Perhaps in the future if I can afford to have a bigger team, we'll be able to do that!