[Easy, Environmental] cognitionDivision

Go here for finished level:

http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=3852.0

Really like those screenshots. The last one reminds me of an area from Falling Water... though only vaguely.

I loved "The Seashell", so a new level by you is always good in my book! And a level designated "easy" and "environmental" is even more welcome.

Some very beautiful visuals here. A bit inconsistent at times, e.g. when, in the first area, the backgrounds have comparatively many trees, whereas the foreground doesn't have too many, and the ones it does have are grey, whereas you'd expect them to be black. But stunning stuff nonetheless, loved the scenery, the canyons and the mountains, etc.

As for level design, well, it depends on what you wanted to achieve. If you wanted some authentic landscape work, job well done. If you wanted the player to be able to easily travel and recognize places, I'd say the level is pretty mazey; I got lost very quickly. It's particularly easy to get lost if you jump and just fly through several empty screens. You could make some areas stand out more than others; e.g. by adding a few critters (you can have several screens with just one type of critter, then emphasize some other location with anoter type of critter, etc).

Also, I found a few voids, e.g. you can jump to the right from x1018 screens, and maybe some of the warps are working a bit wrong, warping the player two times instead of one - unfortunately, I can't remember exactly where that happened to me; it's just that the sky changed in a weird way at one point and that seemed to loop for a little while.

Sadly, I don't have the time to beta-test this properly, but I had to comment because I liked the visuals and the mood so much.

I've only played for a couple of minutes because I really don't have any time today (but couldn't resist the lure of another level by you *g*). I'm with yohji - that's some absolutely stunning visuals you've achieved there. I've only seen the first area, and only parts of that, but you really manage to take a very well-known tileset and make it feel completely new. I already noticed in The Seashell that you have a wonderful sense of composition, and control the use of colour very carefully. Both is in evidence here, too. I'm very much looking forward to being able to play this level in its entirety. 

The screenshoots are way to simple and unappealing. The last one is kinda nice and looking good as it is. But I suggest you work harder with the other environmets or make it as superficial beautiful as the third. 

I have some questions (and a couple comments here and there) for you three who've answered so far, because I think some of these answers could provoke some interesting conversations useful for me (since obviously I care about my own work), if not all involved parties;

Hmpf: Thanks for the praise--though like everyone else I tell myself not to be prideful and whatnot when someone compliments me on my work, I can't seem to help it here. Thanks for the ego boost, anyway. Trying to reuse old tilesets in interesting ways is what I was going for, indeed, and I'm glad that, for someone whose repertoire includes Falling Water, it seems worthwhile.


Yohji: Whoops, I forgot to mention that the level is incomplete to the point that there are some obvious voids and warps that haven't been fixed up yet. That'll be fixed later, once it's done. Again, glad to hear that you thought it was stunning and well done authentic landscape work (makes me sound like a gardener!), and of course I love you for all that. Thank you.
     But I'm more interested in your criticisms, to be sure--I was going for a very Shadow of the Colossus-y vibe here, with very few animals very far and few between... but I may add some more to the green area and take your advice, there.
     And about the incongruous background/foreground elements; do they distract you so much that the level doesn't feel like a "place" so much as a construct? That would suck for me. I'm hoping they're something only mildly noticeable, like the rather geometric nature of the cloud formations in the regular levels.
     I was much more disappointed that you felt lost, though; really? I mean, if you really just felt like you didn't know or care where new stuff to see was, then that's certainly an issue. But I wasn't really sure when making this level that that's what I wanted. I decided that I'd make the bottom of the world blend into the top, knowingly giving the audience a chance to get completely off the "track," ruining linearity, too. Here's a couple questions, then, with that insight: If you knew there was no real need or point to progressing in any particular way, would you care if it was maze-like in the way you describe? Would you care if you got lost? If you answer no to both those questions, then still, I do care, at the very least, that you don't feel uninterested if you get off the path you were on; did that happen?


Salmoneous: Again, the SOTC look is what I was going for, here. It's not really supposed to look all that complex and beautiful, any small part of it. It's, in fact, supposed to look somewhat barren.

But I'm more interested in your criticisms, to be sure--I was going for a very Shadow of the Colossus-y vibe here, with very few animals very far and few between... but I may add some more to the green area and take your advice, there.

SotC seems like something I would enjoy playing, but unfortunately I don't have a PS2 or any consoles... I do realize adding animals could ruin the feeling, but if you add something really simple, like those dark grey worms, maybe it won't change the feeling of the level too much.

And about the incongruous background/foreground elements; do they distract you so much that the level doesn't feel like a "place" so much as a construct? That would suck for me. I'm hoping they're something only mildly noticeable, like the rather geometric nature of the cloud formations in the regular levels.

Well, to be perfectly honest, the grey foreground trees did break the immersion for me. Because shades of grey are used for land that is far away, and trees that are far away are the same color as the land they're on - well, seeing large grey trees felt like "ah, so this is supposed to be a foreground tree; unfortunately the tileset doesn't have a black one" instead of "ooh, a tree". This isn't really helpful criticism as the problem is in the tileset, not in your design, but... eh. Obviously, all this applies to the first area alone.

Here's a couple questions, then, with that insight: If you knew there was no real need or point to progressing in any particular way, would you care if it was maze-like in the way you describe? Would you care if you got lost? If you answer no to both those questions, then still, I do care, at the very least, that you don't feel uninterested if you get off the path you were on; did that happen?

I wasn't exactly uninterested; just confused. I started the level and didn't realize which powerups I had, so I fell. After what felt like a very, very long fall I end up somewhere and save; eventually I go and fall again, then some caves, then fall again, and again, and suddenly I'm in precisely the same cave as I remember from before. And I have no idea where the area I started out in is, except "very, very, very far above" or "somewhere behind one or two warps". Of course, then I find out that if I keep going to the right, I'll keep finding new stuff, and that doesn't feel good - I'm practically certain I'm missing large chunks of land in the first area, especially since there are many opportunities to make really long jumps through the many empty screens.

In other words, the warps didn't just deal away with linearity (OK by me), they also made it difficult to understand where things are. I felt like "Am I far from the place I started out at, or is it just a screen or two from here?" And after a while it seems that I can't really understand the geography, and in the end it doesn't matter, because as long as I'm going to the right, I'm finding stuff. I guess this is a perfectly plausible way to build levels - the confusion caused by the vague geography can add things to the mood - it's just that I felt a bit uncomfortable not knowing precisely where I'm coming from and where I am going. Even if there is "no real need or point to progressing in any particular way"; it's just that I needed a sense of direction, or at least a few really distinctive areas (like that canyon in the blossoming trees land) to act as landmarks of some sort - if not rewards for exploring what may be paths unrelated to the main task.

Hmpf: Thanks for the praise--though like everyone else I tell myself not to be prideful and whatnot when someone compliments me on my work, I can't seem to help it here. Thanks for the ego boost, anyway. Trying to reuse old tilesets in interesting ways is what I was going for, indeed, and I'm glad that, for someone whose repertoire includes Falling Water, it seems worthwhile.

Heeeeeeh. Hearing that from YOU is an ego boost for ME! (Mutual Admiration Society! Yay! ;-))

I've played some more by now, btw, and I still love it - love it even more than previously, in fact. All the areas I've seen so far have been lovely. The parts that are green and have trees feel all the more miraculous because the rest is so barren and forbidding. Great contrast there.

stunning and well done authentic landscape work (makes me sound like a gardener!)

You know, I do sometimes feel as if knytting is some weird substitute for interacting directly with nature, for me. In fact, I think it's one of the more effective substitutes I know of - playing some other, atmospheric games being another substitute that works, and reading The Lord of the Rings another.

But I'm more interested in your criticisms, to be sure--I was going for a very Shadow of the Colossus-y vibe here, with very few animals very far and few between... but I may add some more to the green area and take your advice, there.

Well, I'm not yohji, but I'm gonna answer that anyway. I haven't played SotC (another sad PS-less person here), but  since I've felt very attracted to that game and to Ico since I first read about them I've recently begun watching Let's Plays of them. And yeah, I do get a similar vibe from your level. I don't think you need animals - though a few worms probably won't detract much from the atmosphere.

And about the incongruous background/foreground elements; do they distract you so much that the level doesn't feel like a "place" so much as a construct? That would suck for me. I'm hoping they're something only mildly noticeable, like the rather geometric nature of the cloud formations in the regular levels.

Well... I didn't find them so distracting. Then again, the entire level *does* feel like a construct to me - but that's not a bad thing. It feels like a place, too; a construct can be a place! Do you know the manga BLAME? Now, the place/construct in that manga is vastly more forbidding and huge than what you've built in this level, and there's not a lot of vegetation in there, but I still got a similar sense, when playing your level, of exploring some sort of abandoned megastructure. It's obviously been abandoned a long time - long enough for nature to reclaim it (and maybe the megastructure claims parts of nature, in turn, affecting and changing plant life?)
 

I was much more disappointed that you felt lost, though; really? I mean, if you really just felt like you didn't know or care where new stuff to see was, then that's certainly an issue. But I wasn't really sure when making this level that that's what I wanted. I decided that I'd make the bottom of the world blend into the top, knowingly giving the audience a chance to get completely off the "track," ruining linearity, too. Here's a couple questions, then, with that insight: If you knew there was no real need or point to progressing in any particular way, would you care if it was maze-like in the way you describe? Would you care if you got lost? If you answer no to both those questions, then still, I do care, at the very least, that you don't feel uninterested if you get off the path you were on; did that happen?

Well, I had some minor moments of frustration due to the looping thing; it *is* confusing. Still, for me, at least, the environment held enough interest to not make me mind too much. I just gave up eventually in a few places and decided to go on exploring in another direction, after 'falling' - essentially - from the bottom to the top of the world a few times. So if there was anything there I should have found by jumping into the abyss, I probably missed it.

Played this some more, and OMG, I love it so much. I think it may be among my favourite ten or so levels now. I may actually love it even more than The Seashell, and I love *that* a lot.

I also found some of your older level fragments in the archive. Did any of these result in a finished, or at least playable level? Because I loved what there was of them, and would love to play more.

You really have a very distinctive style; very... architectural, may be the word. It's amazing how distinctive it is, considering you're always using a small set of extremely common default tilesets! Your levels also convey a real sense of space, which isn't easy to achieve in a 2D game... And they all feel as if they may be set in the same world - a world full of mysterious, floating, giant structures that have been conquered by nature, their original purpose forgotten...

Um, so, how goes the work on this? I was really looking forward to playing the finished level and kind of expected it soon since you said "It's just about done"... Is everything allright?

What yohji said.

Um, so, how goes the work on this? I was really looking forward to playing the finished level and kind of expected it soon since you said "It's just about done"... Is everything allright?

Yeah, and top of that, the mods deleted the one version we COULD play, so those of us who missed it are out of luck. What a silly rule that is.

I've already said a lot about your level on it's release thread, but somehow I totally missed these preview threads until now.  There is a lot of nice thoughts here.

You really have a very distinctive style; very... architectural, may be the word. It's amazing how distinctive it is, considering you're always using a small set of extremely common default tilesets! Your levels also convey a real sense of space, which isn't easy to achieve in a 2D game... And they all feel as if they may be set in the same world - a world full of mysterious, floating, giant structures that have been conquered by nature, their original purpose forgotten...

Totally agree.  I've been spending months making a growing number of tile sets just so I can get the right feel, yet you've done it with the old sets.  Grrr... jealous.   

There is a lot of statements about a looping effect.  Did your old version not have the sea at the bottom?  I kind of wish you had kept the looping.  The solution I found, and plan to use for my coming large scale project, is to loop, but to have a great deal of empty space between top and bottom so you feel like your falling deeply into the top area.  Had you tried this in your demo?


I'd also really like to know what you think of my contribution to the Great Art level:

http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=3729.0