About Using Stuff You Didn't Make Yourself

With a lot of help from Bloxmaster, this topic was summarised and ported over from the old forum.

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The admins' standpoint on this is the following:
Using copyrighted material, including music and graphics or even characters, is not legal, as per United States laws. (These laws MUST be followed by the forum, as the server is in the USA), so in order to protect everyone, such things will be removed.

I certainly will delete levels where I find out that they use illegal material. Not to bully you, but to protect this forum and you. If indeed a company goes in pursuit to track you down, it’s my obligation to help them in any way, which results in giving out your IP address. With that, they can contact your ISP, and through them, they'll get your name and address (or that of your parents or whoever pays the internet access at that moment). Eventually they'll reach you and you'll have to pay a big fine for infringement. I just don't want it to go that far, and I therefore will prevent any effort where possible.

When it comes to our notice that copyrighted material has been used, the user will be asked if they have permission.

If the person wants to lie to us, then it means they know that they are breaking copyright concerns, and it will be entirely up to them to cope with the problems. I don't want to be a bully, but I want to protect people from getting harmed. If they don't want the protection (by lying) then they're on their own.

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However, the generally valuable idea that the creators should be able to have control over what they create has severe flaws, and it seems the 'fine line' and 'how punishable infringement is' seem to vary. The following quotes basically are included for their food-for-thought-value. Nifflas' personal point of view on this matter:

Yeah, but it still takes a human with neither a heart nor brain to attempt to sue those children. In this case, I still give the industry the entire blame. Timberland steals music from Tempest to produce a song for Nelly Furtado without consequences, but a 12-year girl gets sued for file sharing. The record industry has too much money and power, and lawyers enough to attack anyone they want to, and defend themselves from almost anything.

But, on the other hand, LPChip has a point:

....it would be non-human to just abuse someone's music without having permission. How would you feel if you spend 2 months to work on something and you're proud of? Then you learn that someone used what you made in a crappy movie or level or whatever without even asking you? I certainly would be really pissed.

So, to sum this up:
Think honestly about these questions before using anything you didn't make yourself or already got the permission to use.

• Can I get the required permission to use the material legally?
• What's the risk of anyone taking legal actions?
• Could I afford the consequences?
• Would the author like this?
• Is this really 'fair use'?
• Is it right to use this material? (from a moral point of view, which is not always identical to the law:
  Quote from: Nifflas

  In my opinion it's a lot more wrong to use the material of small unknown artists than big successful ones.

If you're still not sure, feel free to ask. :)

Why did the server move to america?

I think it has always been there.

Indeed, the server always was in the USA.

This is a touchy subject indeed, but I do not like the new rule, at least not all the way through. I understand why the admins want to protect the site, themselves and the users... but removing tiny knytt levels in which we use fitting (and copyrighted) materials seems almost too serious to me.

There is no 'fine line'; since it varies its not a line - but more of a zone, greyscale or call it what you like. That creative minds should be tied by these strict rules is not good at all. My opinion is also based on the fact that this is noncommercial knytt levels were talking about. Yes, the scale should matter.

Copyright vs creative freedom (as just inspiration or using material) is a hot-topic in Sweden, were the government is just about to vote for a new law, enabling individuals or companies to obtain the name behind the IP if the suspicion of theft or abuse is strong enough. I've thought about it quite a bit of lately, and i do not fully agree with LPChip;

....it would be non-human to just abuse someone's music without having permission. How would you feel if you spend 2 months to work on something and you're proud of? Then you learn that someone used what you made in a crappy movie or level or whatever without even asking you? I certainly would be really pissed.

I'm not sure of how I would feel. But i think that instead of being really pissed, i would be proud and glad that someone thought my work of art was good enough to use in their own work. As long as they did not claim it as their own of course. However, this was not my opinion some time ago... but i've changed my mind about that. If i make something i'm proud of, i do not hide it in my basement and lock the door. Being creative is communicating to others, with or without words - and when someone responds, should you being pissed be the reaction?
It is always better to ask permission, but a complete ban of levels with copyright materials is not for the better. I do respect the rule however - I'll upload my levels somewhere else - so a question might be if its allowed to link to levels using copyrighted material uploaded on other sites?

It's not just that they don't want it on the web-site, it's also illegal.

Quote

....it would be non-human to just abuse someone's music without having permission. How would you feel if you spend 2 months to work on something and you're proud of? Then you learn that someone used what you made in a crappy movie or level or whatever without even asking you? I certainly would be really pissed.

I'm not sure of how I would feel. But i think that instead of being really pissed, i would be proud and glad that someone thought my work of art was good enough to use in their own work. As long as they did not claim it as their own of course. However, this was not my opinion some time ago... but i've changed my mind about that. If i make something i'm proud of, i do not hide it in my basement and lock the door.

Do you even make music, or graphics that you really are proud of?

I do, and I had an occasion that really pissed me of.

Someone had made a knytt stories level that allowed you to do dancing music using shifts and so. It was quite buggy and not that cool either. It was just a fun level to play. Someone had put a song I'm really proud on in the background and played that level badly to make it dance on my music. This person did so wtihout my permission nor the permission of the person who made the level. I really didn't liked it at all. Tried even to get it off using youtube's privacy infrigment, but they didn't wanted to remove it.

And I'm really not the only person who feels like this. It occasionally happens that when I have made a song and someone asks me for permission to use it in their work that I say no. But I usually have another song or am willing to make something equally so they don't go home empty handed. Not to mention that some songs are actually licensed. Meaning that its illegal to use them anyway.

Quote from: Lingon on March 08, 2009, 01:39:32

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....it would be non-human to just abuse someone's music without having permission. How would you feel if you spend 2 months to work on something and you're proud of? Then you learn that someone used what you made in a crappy movie or level or whatever without even asking you? I certainly would be really pissed.

I'm not sure of how I would feel. But i think that instead of being really pissed, i would be proud and glad that someone thought my work of art was good enough to use in their own work. As long as they did not claim it as their own of course. However, this was not my opinion some time ago... but i've changed my mind about that. If i make something i'm proud of, i do not hide it in my basement and lock the door.

Do you even make music, or graphics that you really are proud of?

Why do you ask that? Even if I were not a creative person, I would still have the right to have an opinion in this matter, which makes this irrelevant.

Anyways, I understand that you can get pissed. I merely added what i thought about it. You'r not wrong, and niether am I, since its our own works were talking about - and therefore the right to decide whats ok belongs to the creator him/herself. Its just that the Internet is a big place, not just our little forum. I can understand that another random-internet guy dont ask permission for using something of mine. Its a totally different thing if he then ignores my request to stop using it - in that case im totally with you (and I would be pissed yeah).

He indeed ignored my request too, but I was pissed before then already because I'm so proud of this song.

would it be possible to use music from someone who says "you can use my music freely, so long as you credit me" or does this apply to all custom music?

If he/she said that, then you can use the music as long as you credit the person.

Sigh.

Here's the short story: you can take the song and use it however the license says you can use it. That's it.
If the license says you have to contact the artist first, then you'd better get to contacting them before you so much as release a preview video of your level with their music.
If the license says they need a royalty, then you're better off not using it.
If the license says you just have to credit them, then go bananas as long as the people who play the level know who the artist was.

That's it. Simple as that.

... so a question might be if its allowed to link to levels using copyrighted material uploaded on other sites?

Am I right to assume that this rule aplies only for files stored on the forums server in USA (and also the KSLA). If this is the case it would be allowed to post a link to the file - whereas attaching the file would not be allowed. Please correct me if im wrong

EDIT - I just figured that, most likely, the KSLA will only be able to manage and sort uploaded ks files. If the KSLA could manage to sort links refering to files that would kind of solve the problem...

Quote from: Lingon on March 08, 2009, 01:39:32

... so a question might be if its allowed to link to levels using copyrighted material uploaded on other sites?

Am I right to assume that this rule aplies only for files stored on the forums server in USA (and also the KSLA). If this is the case it would be allowed to post a link to the file - whereas attaching the file would not be allowed. Please correct me if im wrong

EDIT - I just figured that, most likely, the KSLA will only be able to manage and sort uploaded ks files. If the KSLA could manage to sort links refering to files that would kind of solve the problem...

No. It's still illegal to download the copyrighted material if it is still protected in whichever country you're in, and unless the servers of wherever the material is are in space or something, it's illegal to upload it, too.

I think this is quite complicated. I have mentioned this at the previous forum, but now that the topic is gone, I'll re-write some of it with new words and add some new stuff. Copyrights last way too long, and I strongly believe in "fair use". For example, when Timberland had ripped that piece of music from Tempest, there was a comparison video at youtube that really proved that it was the same piece of music. Of course, the video then disappeared from youtube, probably because the record company or someone else who held the rights reported the video as a copyright infringement. That was definitely fair use, and it's scary when the rules can be used to prevent good journalism (either amateur or professional).

I personally don't see a problem in using music from very known artists who have already made a profit from it (the use of "What is Love" in "Don't eat the Mushroom" is awesome) if credits is given, but the laws doesn't agree with me here, and I think we should stick to following them on this forum.

Using music from an unknown artist is something I definitely don't like though. The "big" artist's work is already recognized and liked for what it is by a large audience and won't be associated to a third party level to a small indie game like Knytt Stories just because it's used in one, but the small unknown artist might actually be hurt from that the wrong associations are made with his/her music and the rest of the content (and besides, it's easy enough to get in touch with those and ask).

I'm facing the same dilemma here anyway, I'm capturing this huge photo library that I will use for sceneries in a future game (it's around 1500 photos now), and at least half of the photos I'm capturing are objects created by other people, even including sculptures. If I had full respect for their rights to control their own creations, I wouldn't have been able to do this at all, and re-using and re-cycling can be part of a creative process too.

...but again, we'll have to stay legal on the forums even if we don't always agree with the rules