My First level: The Desert Story

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Offline Zorf

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My First level: The Desert Story
« on: February 15, 2010, 00:18:11 »
The level is on the level archive website.
Change to By Author mode and scroll all the way down to the bottom.
The level is called "The Desert Story".
Leave a comment and tell me what you think.
You want a Knytt Story?!? I'LL GIVE YOU A F***ING KNYTT STORY!

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Offline Pick Yer Poison

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2010, 01:37:27 »
Could you post a download link and screenshots?

Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2010, 05:16:58 »
Link, anyone?

it is unreasonably hard, worse then lunatic
I wouldn't say that. Although difficult, it is more overpopulation syndrome.
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Offline the Jack

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #3 on: February 20, 2010, 15:24:55 »
There is never -- never -- any call for this kind of language when discussing someone else's work:
In reply to now deleted post(s):
By SingingSurger
<insert trolling>... I don't care how much I trolled, this game just plain sucks.


I personally found the level unplayably difficult (but I find many popular levels unplayably hard, and would have no way to distinguish between 'very hard' and 'lunatic', as just-'hard', and even sometimes 'normal', are too difficult for me and my decrepit reflexes) so I used the editor's Test Level feature to skip past screens I couldn't get through without dying.

(Incidentally, many of the individual screens were not impossibly hard for me, especially
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
I found a few of the enemy- and/or trap-containing screens downright easy, in fact, and several others challenging but possible without undue luck. I'd say about half of the deadly screens which are necessary to play through were impossible for me -- and I did at least try each one before skipping past. I am still wondering, however, whether
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

(Also, I don't know whether anyone else noticed, or whether this was an intentional design choice on Zorf's part, but
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I thought the storyline was interesting enough, if not high literature (and few KS levels rise past giving Juni something to do and a reason to do it, after all, if they do even that much). Yes, it reuses the
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
theme, but so do many, many levels, including some very well-liked ones. Compared to other levels, I'd say this was an average to above-average storyline, actually, especially with
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
and also the
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
The key-retrieval sequences in the cave were perhaps a tad forced, but not unreasonably so, aside from the difficulty involved in crossing some of the screens.

Speaking of story devices, I really liked the
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
I'm sure someone else has done this in a level, but I haven't personally seen it before, and it's both cute and handy, and rewards the thorough explorer.

Yes, there are a number of voids and wallswims, often in places where I can't imagine not realising they would happen... if the level designer knows what voids and wallswims are and how to avoid them. My guess is that Zorf does not fully understand these issues, and/or doesn't really 'get' how to beta-test one's own level as a player who doesn't know where they're 'meant' to go would -- which is very much an acquired skill. On the other hand, all kinds of experienced level designers release levels only to have people point out multiple void and/or wallswim issues. 'The Desert Story' had an unusually high ratio of voids and wallswims to its total screen count, but in pure numbers there have been worse levels in terms of total voids or wallswims. Also, both issues are easily fixed.

On the other hand, the one non-deadly challenge, the
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
was very well-done. It looks simple in the editor, but played through without foreknowledge of the layout, it was delightfully satisfying to solve and felt... realistic, inasmuch as anything in a fantasy platformer can.

Visually, the level was quite pleasant overall. Despite using just a single tileset for approximately 90% of the level, Zorf managed to give the screens the appearance of variety, and used a very-familiar and often-used tileset in new and interesting ways. Some of these worked quite well, especially the crisscrossing effect in the penultimate screen. I didn't care for the 'keyhole' effect in the scenery of the castle-courtyard area, but it was at least different. There was one screen which Zorf worked on but wound up not putting into the playable part of the level, and which is visible in the editor -- and it's a real shame it didn't make it in, as it's very pretty.

The cutscene graphics varied. The info.png image -- the 'splash' screen you see when choosing which new/saved game slot to load -- was very attractive and well-chosen, though probably not made by Zorf, and uncredited... I'm pretty sure even public-domain (under neither copyright nor copyleft) images have to be credited under KS rules. The Intro cutscene's clumsy text positioning and fill issues (wrong colours inside letters like a, b, d, e, g etc.) suggests that Zorf used MS Paint and has little to no graphics experience or skills. (Nothing wrong with that; I'm a whiz with GIMP or Photoshop but I couldn't program my way out of a wet paper bag.) On the other hand, Zorf did manage to compose and capture screenshots for the intro cutscene -- a better choice might have been to put the text in a sign element and capture it along with the scene -- and generally almost any intro- and ending-cutscenes are better than leaving the default "Level Start" and "You Win!" text-images.

Speaking of which, the ending-cutscene image Zorf used was again probably someone else's work but uncredited. In the case of the ending the image wasn't as attractive as the info-splash and also
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Overall, 'The Desert Story' shows promise from a level design standpoint. The problems with it are all easily fixable -- better/credited graphics, fixes for the voids and wallswims, some tweaking of the placement / quantity / selection of enemies so that players don't ragequit before they've properly begun the level. The overall story flow is fine, with a couple of rough spots that could stand to be tweaked (mainly
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
which can be done via flags/shifts, and fleshing out the ending-cutscene and/or the last screen or two leading up to it so that the ending
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
The handling of ambiance and music was quite good for a first level: appropriate, and changing as Juni progresses through the story, without being obtrusive. It's the art of level design that can't really be tweaked if someone truly can't make attractive or interesting levels, after all; everything else is just details and perseverance, i.e. not abandoning the level half-finished. Honestly, it's a level of ambitious size for a first effort, and that earns Zorf at least a partial 'pass' for
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Rather than a numerical rating, I'll just sum up (and this is the tl;dr for those who need one): Needs improvement, but shows substantial promise.

I for one am looking forward to seeing what Zorf can do after learning from what didn't work in this first level.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 01:58:21 by LPChip »

Actually, it's eggplant.

Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #4 on: February 20, 2010, 17:56:29 »
but I find many popular levels unplayably hard, and would have no way to distinguish between 'very hard' and 'lunatic', as just-'hard', and even sometimes 'normal', are too difficult for me and my decrepit reflexes
Many popular levels do not have far too many enemies between saves.
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Offline the Jack

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2010, 19:31:21 »
but I find many popular levels unplayably hard, and would have no way to distinguish between 'very hard' and 'lunatic', as just-'hard', and even sometimes 'normal', are too difficult for me and my decrepit reflexes
Many popular levels do not have far too many enemies between saves.

As I said, I find many popular levels unplayably hard; that is, levels that other people can play just fine and enjoy are too hard for me. And, for me, those levels do have too many enemies (and/or traps) between savepoints.

Some examples: The Core, Dark Sky of Wish Mountain, The Explore Challenge, Frozen Mountain (I can't even get past the very first screen with an enemy), Going Left, Gustav's Daughter, Harvest, Monocromatica Grotta, The Oubliette, Spiral, Teenhmifnoeafgil... and those are just ones I've downloaded & tried but haven't deleted yet. Note also that most of those I attempted to play based on finding them in a Favourite levels thread, and the remainder were recced by at least one person.

A Knytt in Time is considered by several people, myself included, to have too few savepoints in multiple parts of the level, as well -- that very issue is currently being discussed in the thread for it -- but overall it's a brilliant level... which just underscores my point: Namely, that the playability issues in this level are easily corrected.

Actually, it's eggplant.

Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2010, 20:29:32 »
but I find many popular levels unplayably hard, and would have no way to distinguish between 'very hard' and 'lunatic', as just-'hard', and even sometimes 'normal', are too difficult for me and my decrepit reflexes
Many popular levels do not have far too many enemies between saves.

As I said, I find many popular levels unplayably hard; that is, levels that other people can play just fine and enjoy are too hard for me. And, for me, those levels do have too many enemies (and/or traps) between savepoints.
In that case, I'm assuming this level would have far too many enemies (and/or traps) between savepoints for you.
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Offline Hmpf

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2010, 21:08:38 »
the Jack, see this thread for a reply to you... ;-)

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Offline the Jack

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2010, 23:55:27 »
but I find many popular levels unplayably hard, and would have no way to distinguish between 'very hard' and 'lunatic', as just-'hard', and even sometimes 'normal', are too difficult for me and my decrepit reflexes
[emphasis added]

Many popular levels do not have far too many enemies between saves.

As I said, I find many popular levels unplayably hard; that is, levels that other people can play just fine and enjoy are too hard for me. And, for me, those levels do have too many enemies (and/or traps) between savepoints.

In that case, I'm assuming this level would have far too many enemies (and/or traps) between savepoints for you.

Yes. Which would be why I said:
I personally found the level unplayably difficult (but I find many popular levels unplayably hard, and would have no way to distinguish between 'very hard' and 'lunatic', as just-'hard', and even sometimes 'normal', are too difficult for me and my decrepit reflexes)
[emphases added]

I said it immediately before the part of the sentence you quoted -- now helpfully highlighted in blue in both your quotation and mine -- so I'm not sure how you missed it. Also the sentence ended with my admission that I had to resort to the editor frequently in order to see most of the level.

...What exactly are we arguing about? Is there an actual disagreement, and/or a point in continuing it?

Actually, it's eggplant.

Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2010, 00:01:25 »
I said it immediately before the part of the sentence you quoted -- now helpfully highlighted in blue in both your quotation and mine -- so I'm not sure how you missed it. Also the sentence ended with my admission that I had to resort to the editor frequently in order to see most of the level.
I did not miss it. I was merely confirming it.
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Offline Zorf

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2010, 02:15:04 »
Thank you for all of your complements and complaints.
I actually did do the cut scenes in GIMP... Badly, but that's beside the point. I can remember those where I didn't close the voids, but I don't know where the wall-swims are.  I know the final screen is hard, but that is actually a toned down version of the original version! My first design had some bladed bots and some flyers. Consider yourselves lucky!The short cut in the castle? That was a mistake on my part. Sorry for the poor beta testing and I hoped you enjoyed my level as much as I enjoyed making it.
P.S. Watch out for the sequel some time in the near (see distant) future! It took a really long time to make this level.
You want a Knytt Story?!? I'LL GIVE YOU A F***ING KNYTT STORY!

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Offline minmay

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2010, 15:47:40 »
I usually ignore the whole KS level-making "scene," because I haven't seen a level within the past year or so that has graduated from mediocrity.  But when I saw a post that was deleted for being too critical...I'm going to call this "Drakkan Complex," except it apparently extends to levels that aren't your own now.  I know that the comment was sort of rude, but really.

Now, first of all, let me say something: this level really is terrible.  The worst part is the graphical side; no effort whatsoever has been put into making the screens look good, and completely incompatible tilesets and objects have been forced together.

But the challenges aren't much better.  The level relies mostly on flat rooms with a few seemingly randomly chosen enemies on them.  Again, I doubt any actual effort was put into this, and I don't have a problem with the gaps between save points so much as I have a problem with the ridiculous randomness of the enemy choices.

The level also has a lot of void screens (which directly lead to wallswims), and horribly inconsistent use of No Climb objects.

I'm not really going to complain about the storyline (or lack thereof) per se, as anyone playing KS for the plot has been heavily misguided, but honestly, if you can't write, don't.

The most enjoyable part of the level was the title screen, as it had a rather pretty picture of a Hollywood Oasis.  Of course, once I realized that no credit was given for it...yeah.  The intro and ending were also done in a painfully inept fashion, but the importance of cutscenes is greatly overinflated by most people here.



I'd like to ask you to define "really long time," because honestly, the level looks like it was made in a day or two.

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Offline the Jack

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2010, 01:26:10 »
At the risk of people starting to think Zorf is my little brother or something...

Minmay, I don't know whether SingingSurger deleted that comment or a mod did; in any case I believe the issue wasn't how critical it was, but how pointlessly rude and unhelpfully critical it was.

If you usually avoid these threads, maybe you should go back to doing that... unless you're just hoping to have your own comment deleted, thinking that will make you seem cool, or somehow make a point about an imagined injustice?

I frankly do not understand why people who apparently want to have new levels to play would rather chase away newcomers with the internet equivalent of pitchforks and torches, when those newcomers could wind up making levels for them to play if they were greeted instead with encouragement and tips for improvement. Realistically, no one can learn the editor and make an entire level in just a couple of days, especially if they have school or work and can't devote all day to working on it. There is such a thing as a learning curve. People whose first released levels are polished and well-crafted generally worked on one or more practice levels they didn't release -- they didn't install KS and a week later turn out a masterpiece.

Perhaps if people wish to continue debating how and/or whether to criticise other people's levels, that discussion should get its own thread instead of continuing to verge off-topic in this thread.

Actually, it's eggplant.

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Offline SingingSurger

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Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2010, 02:40:32 »
At the risk of people starting to think Zorf is my little brother or something...

Minmay, I don't know whether SingingSurger deleted that comment or a mod did; in any case I believe the issue wasn't how critical it was, but how pointlessly rude and unhelpfully critical it was.

If you usually avoid these threads, maybe you should go back to doing that... unless you're just hoping to have your own comment deleted, thinking that will make you seem cool, or somehow make a point about an imagined injustice?

I frankly do not understand why people who apparently want to have new levels to play would rather chase away newcomers with the internet equivalent of pitchforks and torches, when those newcomers could wind up making levels for them to play if they were greeted instead with encouragement and tips for improvement. Realistically, no one can learn the editor and make an entire level in just a couple of days, especially if they have school or work and can't devote all day to working on it. There is such a thing as a learning curve. People whose first released levels are polished and well-crafted generally worked on one or more practice levels they didn't release -- they didn't install KS and a week later turn out a masterpiece.

Perhaps if people wish to continue debating how and/or whether to criticise other people's levels, that discussion should get its own thread instead of continuing to verge off-topic in this thread.

-Epic Point- NO COOKIES FOR YOU!
Anywho, I did not delete the post. I went off and beat it (death count 83) and then saw that it had a mysterious ending, which spiced it up a tad. I'm making a new post about this

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
Ah, look at all the lonely people.

Re: My First level: The Desert Story
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2010, 04:21:04 »
I frankly do not understand why people who apparently want to have new levels to play would rather chase away newcomers with the internet equivalent of pitchforks and torches, when those newcomers could wind up making levels for them to play if they were greeted instead with encouragement and tips for improvement. Realistically, no one can learn the editor and make an entire level in just a couple of days, especially if they have school or work and can't devote all day to working on it. There is such a thing as a learning curve. People whose first released levels are polished and well-crafted generally worked on one or more practice levels they didn't release -- they didn't install KS and a week later turn out a masterpiece.
That's why you don't spend 2 hours on your first level and expect everyone to like it. 9_9 <_<
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