Everything is so HARD !!!

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Offline PONTO

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Re: Everything is so HARD !!!
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2010, 20:48:15 »
What you think matters not 1 iota - what Niflas things isn't much more important either - the point I've tried to make (and which you seem unable to grasp) is that the OP, myself and seemingly quite a few other people have decided the game is too hard/not worth persevering with (even just the demo!) - and that's a failure in anyone's book surely?

If we thought the game was shit we'd have said nothing and moved along, but clearly we like a lot of what the game is trying to do BUT it's less fun/enjoyable/rewarding to do it because we feel we're being punished/the game is unfair.
And my answer to you was exactly that your standards about the fairness of the game are probably not the same as one who is used to playing videogames - a gamer.

If I'd developed the game I'd love this sort of feedback - I'd take in onboard because I cannot know how others approach/play my games and I'd want as many people to play them as possible (whether for financial reward or just personal satisfaction).
That's what's wrong with commercial videogames and the reason I like indie games. Nowdays, the industry makes mostly games for the masses, instead of focusing on what they want to make, as creative people. I think you were not around at the time, but many people from this forum know that THAT is exactly what went wrong with Knytt Experiment - Nifflas trying to please everyone and thus not making the game HE wanted to make.

Taking a "this game is hard and is designed for people who like hard games" attitude is - imho - bollocks - it would be like making a car which misfires and where the wheels fall-off from time to time just to 'challenge' the driver...
As BloxMaster said, that analogy does not hold up, as a challenge is inherent to the game and a car is mostly a tool to get you from one place to another.
Also, does that "imho" mean "in my humble opinion"? Because when you said "How is life behind that lovely set of blinkers you're sporting there??", it did not sound humble at all.

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Offline Nifflas

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Re: Everything is so HARD !!!
« Reply #46 on: August 25, 2010, 12:34:05 »
Quote
If I'd developed the game I'd love this sort of feedback - I'd take in onboard because I cannot know how others approach/play my games and I'd want as many people to play them as possible (whether for financial reward or just personal satisfaction).
I know how others approach and play my games. I have beta testing, and even let other people play the games while I watch what they're doing. This is really important for how I design the games, so feedback is an important part of my game development. You seem to talk like I don't understand how people approach and play Saira. I have experience from creating many games here, I've got feedback for every game, and I've seen people play them all. In fact, I know in detail what areas casual gamers get stuck in, what the most common mistakes the player makes, and where non-gamers simply get frustrated and give up. I deliberately try to target people who like hard games with Saira, there's no unintentional difficulty here. I like hard games, and I have a high respect for other developers who dare to create a real challenge in the 21th century despite that people will complain. Games like La-Mulana, Spelunky, or Mega Man 9 wouldn't be what they are if they were made easier, and nothing is a failure about them just because most people can't beat them.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate feedback. However, one of the main mistakes people who write feedback to me often make is that they don't realize they're one single person. I get more feedback than you can imagine, both from people who absolutely hate my design choices, and people who really like them. I can never please everyone and if I try to sum it all up it just becomes a paradox. Appreciating feedback is not the same thing as agreeing with it all. If I did that, my head would explode over figuring out how to solve a paradox, instead of just being able to create the game I like.

I'm satisfied with the general feedback about Saira. Again, some think it's too hard which is logical since it's a hard game, other appreciate the difficulty because they like hard games. You say I should listen to the feedback I get, but you don't understand that I've heard a lot of positive opinions about the difficulty, and that I need to take that into account too. Even in this thread, there are more people who appreciate the difficulty, than people who dislike it. No matter how right you think you are, you're just one opinion out of hundreds to me.

Code: (Also, this isn't going anywhere. Perhaps it's time to lock this?) [Select]
<?
  while($conclusion==false) {
    echo "Yeah, but the game is not just hard, it's too hard!\n";
    echo "That's because the game is made to appeal to people who like hard games!\n";
  }
?>
« Last Edit: August 25, 2010, 15:01:52 by Nifflas »

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Offline Fishos

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Re: Everything is so HARD !!!
« Reply #47 on: August 28, 2010, 16:22:36 »
People of the 21st century are so spoiled...

Hard is good. Raise the difficulty farther. :shifty:
« Last Edit: August 28, 2010, 16:24:45 by Fishos »

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Offline Zelakon

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Re: Everything is so HARD !!!
« Reply #48 on: August 28, 2010, 22:42:31 »
Personally I didn't find it hard at all; I'd say it was perfect for my ability (no arrogance intended because I've got no right to be), but considering everyone has different abilities then there's obviously no pleasing everyone.

As for those who find it too hard, the opinions of those who persevere are more justified than the opinions of those who dismiss it for being too challenging.

Better a game be too hard than too easy...

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Offline futil3

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Re: Everything is so HARD !!!
« Reply #49 on: September 30, 2010, 18:56:18 »
[...] there are more people who appreciate the difficulty, than people who dislike it. No matter how right you think you are, you're just one opinion out of hundreds to me.
This entire thread carries a presumption that difficulty is an either-or property, and I do not agree.

Optional features that increase accessibility can not possibly destroy the enjoyment for these (allegedly) "hardcore" players.

An easy mode excludes none, but actively invites all of us "casual" players. While I understand there might be development- and time issues to this, surely us "1 in a 100" would be appreciated customers?

See, here's my situation: I paid for this game only to be locked out of the vast majority of its content. I'm sure you're all great people, but this macho bullshit and lack of empathy is not helpful. At all. I didn't buy Macho Mega Man 9. So please: let me increase or completely remove the time limits. And lessen my frustration by not forcing me sit through that 3-second countdown. Every. Fucking. Time. You know - just give me the god damn win-button! :)

(also Nifflas; the pinball mechanics are textbook game design! Superbly elegant. Do something with that, it would KILL on Android/iPhone.)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2010, 23:03:40 by futil3 »

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Offline Nifflas

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Re: Everything is so HARD !!!
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2010, 00:20:13 »
Everything takes time. An easy mode need to change the topography of all levels, and requires alternative variations of all the puzzles. On top of that, the second common complaint is that the game is too short. Now, Saira's development time would have been much longer if I wanted to "fix" both these things, and we were only two guys doing most of the work, the game was already pushing my capabilities. If I listened, Saira would either still be a game under development, or even worse, a game that would never be finished. Worth to mention is that the most common mistake among "small" game developers is to attempt to create too large games with too many features, and for every game released there's dozens of games that developers failed with due to taking on a too big task. Having spent so many of my first years on never-to-be-seen games like this, I know that I must ignore most of the ideas that pops up in my own head to be able to get anything done at all.

Still, people want my games with more difficulty settings, with more length, or more features. For games with customizable level editors, I get requests for customizable characters, enemies, or as it was suggested in the "the community is dead" board, that it would be great with a Knytt Stories editor with more customization so that entire new games could be built out of it.

From your perspective, it probably looks like that you know an improvement that would make the game better. You want me to implement it. Try to see it from my angle; I get tons of suggestions, opinions, and complains. I get them on this forum, by msn, by email, and in person, about every game I release and have released. I know I can only pick to a tenth of the suggestions and still be able to finish my games. I know some people will feel unappreciated because I didn't pick theirs, and I can't fix that without sacrificing something else either. How can I explain that I appreciate you casual gamers too, and still won't implement this in Saira?

I made sure that the demo both contained complicated puzzles and timed platform sections to make sure the player wouldn't be mistaken about its difficulty. The best suggestion I can give is to try the demos. In the future, I might create a game with a difficulty that's right for you!

Admins, feel free to lock; everything have been said and at this point the arguments are just on repeat.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2010, 02:04:54 by Nifflas »