The Level Designer's Trap

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Offline minmay

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2010, 16:42:20 »
This sounds like more of a case of using surprising death objects to block something off rather than a trap, per se.

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Offline bunnrey

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2010, 07:20:24 »
one word.
solidgrass.
 :)

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Offline Pick Yer Poison

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2010, 07:56:17 »
one word.
solidgrass.
 :)

Oh god no

Please

Anything but that

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Offline pumpkin

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2010, 19:50:18 »
Indeed, solidgrass is the worst of the worst, especially really tall grass...
Many a hand has scaled the grand old face of the plateau,
Some belong to strangers and some to folks you know,
Holy ghosts and talk show hosts are planted in the sand,
To beautify the foothills and shake the many hands.
-The Meat Puppets

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Offline Artix

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #124 on: May 05, 2010, 02:22:35 »
 :huh: I don't find solid grass that bad. If it's restricted to one tile in order to keep a wandering creature from wandering off an edge.

But people complained, so I had to use an alternative for my level.

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Offline Pick Yer Poison

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #125 on: May 05, 2010, 04:06:17 »
:huh: I don't find solid grass that bad. If it's restricted to one tile in order to keep a wandering creature from wandering off an edge.

But people complained, so I had to use an alternative for my level.

The problem shows itself with the player tries to walk over it. Go ahead. Make a solid grass tile and try walking over it. I think you'll be able to see the problem.

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Offline egomassive

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #126 on: May 05, 2010, 11:53:03 »
There's a solution for this.

Juni can walk over a bump 2 pixels high, and it's barely noticeable. Some creatures can and some can't. Some creatures can even pass it going one way, but not the other. You can see the technique in use in the Life Ruby right after you enter the temple.

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Offline yohji

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #127 on: May 05, 2010, 12:50:37 »
Please provide a reason for such a trap being better than the absence of the trap, rather than the trap being better than an even more unfair trap.

What? I never made such ridiculous statements, why should I provide reasons for something I never said? Whether something is better than something else in a level depends entirely on the level in question and the particular screens.
Okay, provide a reason for such a trap being no worse than the absence of the trap (which you definitely implied VERY heavily - "I really don't understand what's so bad about surprise traps," "I think it's safe to assume most players have no problem with surprise traps in general."  But you already did and I responded, probably not to your satisfaction, so yeah.


games that aren't Knytt Stories
I guess I wasn't specific enough.  I was talking about surprise traps in Knytt Stories.  See my explanation of why they work in Spelunky, and why they don't in KS.  Also keep in mind that "this game has a flaw" doesn't mean "this game is a bad game."  I agree that many of the traps and some of the puzzles in La Mulana were stupid, but those are far outnumbered by the puzzles that are fair and fun to figure out, not to mention all the other, more tangentially related things that make the game fun.

The "in Knytt Stories" bit clarified a lot, thanks. Thing is, I don't see KS as a game with a fixed gameplay pattern, whereas you apparently do. One custom level may feel genuinely dangerous, other may be a completely safe, pleasant walk. Others may be little more than living paintings, with the player doing nothing but staring at the environment, and still others may be experiments pushing the boundaries of KS level design logic (e.g. Lingon's "Find the Bug"). This is why I can't reply to "how a surprise trap is no worse than the absense of a trap" - it depends wholly on the level. In a very hard challenge level, for example, both situations are possible; a surprise trap may be perfectly in tune with various challenges (like I described before, making the level feel dangerous), but it also may be completely out of place if it follows a series of particularly hard screens.

In La Mulana, I would consider nothing to be stupid. I think that game is as perfect as games get. It was meant to provide the player with a difficult, unforgiving environment; hence the surprise traps and things that can break the game. Sure, I agree some may be irritating, and breaking the game is never fun, but if the environment is right, if the traps are in tune with it and the gameplay, then they're OK. Gameplay logic should coexist with environment logic, I think.

Anyway, given some other statements you and I made earlier, I guess much of this is personal experience; you get stuck in an unfair trap in La Mulana and consider it stupid; I get stuck in the same trap, I use a few swearwords, then continue from the last appropriate save and never for a moment think that the trap was stupid. Maybe we should leave it at that.

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Offline minmay

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #128 on: May 06, 2010, 01:30:31 »
Well, La-Mulana is intended to be frustrating and irritating in parts, so maybe "stupid" is the wrong word.

Knytt Stories has a restricted gameplay pattern.  Not a fixed one, a restricted one.  The imprecise nature of its physics and most of the enemies means that highly precise challenges are doomed to be annoying and boring, with more luck involved than skill.  Such challenges don't feel right, and, to me, neither do surprising traps.

And, broken record here: opinionItalics.