The Level Designer's Trap

  • 128 Replies
  • 61590 Views
*

Offline Widget

  • 359
  • 27
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2010, 13:17:25 »
Those are a couple of points that make me wonder. Was it Dess who coined the term masocore? Would there be any place for random deaths in a masocore KS level, or would a well made lunatic challenge be more appropriate to the definition?  O_o

*

Offline AA

  • 510
  • 23
  • Was ITA84
    • View Profile
    • Insight on Videogames
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2010, 14:03:31 »
^ By definition, a well made Lunatic level doesn't have random deaths, if that's what you meant.
Videogames are for everyone, by everyone

*

Offline Widget

  • 359
  • 27
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2010, 17:40:52 »
Yep, that's exactly what I meant  :^^:

Just wondered if any case could be made for random deaths in certain levels at certain times. I, personally, can't stand them and I know they're not popular around here but could a certain level for a fringe audience use randomised kills to create a sense that the player is battling against the sheer mysanthropy of the designer?

I'm more inclined to think that requiring pixel-perfect dodging of a regular impediment would be more suitable since someone could, conceivably, glide through a random challenge first try with no problems *g* Was only wondering if anyone else felt differently, given the (hypothetical) scenario  ;)

*

Offline LPChip

  • You can only truly help other people by allowing them to fail.
  • 3510
  • 138
  • Excel at the thing you're the best at!
    • View Profile
    • LPChip Interactive
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2010, 21:22:00 »
To hook in into the conversation of random deaths. I pulled this off in "The Explorer Challenge" by giving a set of choices of which you had to guess which choice didn't kill you. Repeat that 8 times and I thought to have a nice challenge.

People really didn't liked it at all, even while it was a matter of: learn their locations by trial and error and you'll beat it. Difficulty was medium even.

So from first hand experience, people don't like it when they don't know that they'll die just like that. Doesn't matter if there are savespots near those locations.
on the left, above my avatar.

MODPlug Central Forum
"If I tried to kill you, I'd end up with a big fat hole through my laptop." - Chironex

*

Offline Widget

  • 359
  • 27
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2010, 22:25:58 »
Very relevant point, here. I remember "The Explorer Challenge" as one of the levels that taught me how to play more effectively....

I think the key point is that random-slaying is a very fringe genre... I don't like it, and the same goes for most members of this forum, but... can it be justified as a deliberate part of a given person's level?

I think, despite my prior comments, that it can.. but it's not part of the KS mainstream, and never will be. I repeat; can it be justified, in any way, shape or form?

*

Offline minmay

  • 654
  • 8
    • View Profile
    • Cow Muffins
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #50 on: January 31, 2010, 00:45:32 »
Trial-and-error gameplay can never be justified from a design standpoint, period.  However, it can be done ironically for humor purposes (pretty much the entire point of I Wanna Be The Guy), and it was often used in older commercial games to artificially extend the game's length.

*

Offline Razzorman

  • 965
  • 4
  • Contemplating name change.
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #51 on: January 31, 2010, 16:04:38 »
PROTIP: A level which randomly kills you is never fun!
Except for the sadists who make it.
And those crazy enough to LP it (ProtonJon =D).
You mean the guy who LP'ed the fiendishly hard "Don't eat the mushroom", and "Dark sky of wish mountain"? :P2
My only star: :hiddenstar:

 :D

*

Offline Widget

  • 359
  • 27
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2010, 20:38:28 »
In hindsight, my last post sounded pretty confrontational.. Sorry about that, I'm just really interested in the possibilities of abusing gameplay/player expectations (c.f. Cactus/Dessgeega for the most obvious examples). Didn't mean to sound like I was being overly aggressive in putting forward a concept.

Also...
@Razzorman: Lawlz, I was wondering about that....  C)p

*

Offline Pick Yer Poison

  • 782
  • 3
  • One cool cat.
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #53 on: February 03, 2010, 19:42:33 »
To hook in into the conversation of random deaths. I pulled this off in "The Explorer Challenge" by giving a set of choices of which you had to guess which choice didn't kill you. Repeat that 8 times and I thought to have a nice challenge.

People really didn't liked it at all, even while it was a matter of: learn their locations by trial and error and you'll beat it. Difficulty was medium even.

So from first hand experience, people don't like it when they don't know that they'll die just like that. Doesn't matter if there are savespots near those locations.
Thank you for mentioning that. That was my least favorite part of that level by far.

And speaking of random deaths, never, ever, ever make invisible walls of death. If a player can't see what's killing them, not only will they feel confused as to why they died, but they'll start expecting random death everywhere. And players who are afraid of dying for no apparent reason don't have any fun whatsoever. If you really need to stop somone going somewhere, please have the decency to just make a wall or something (unclimbable if you want, or with a ledge or something that blocks the way up).

*

Offline minmay

  • 654
  • 8
    • View Profile
    • Cow Muffins
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2010, 02:27:27 »
I'ma try to centralize all the really important stuff in one post, in rough order of importance.  Plus some stuff that I added on a whim.

General design:

-Consistency.  Everyone seems to have trouble with this.  I don't mean consistency in which tiles you can stand on and which ones you can't.  I don't mean consistency in graphical style.  I don't even mean consistency in musical style.  I mean all of these things and more.  Everything in your level needs to be consistent with everything else in your level.
-Any situation in which the player intentionally kills Juni (with CTRL-R or otherwise) represents a loss of the player's immersion in the level.  Whether it's because they stumbled into a void or just because they want to go back to the last save point, it means the damage has been done, and the level is no longer being "properly" enjoyed.
-Don't bore players.  In general, this means uninteresting rooms, like long corridors, as well as inexplicably withholding the run powerup.
-A large part of KS level design is preventing the player from getting lost.  Extra points if you can make the player think they're lost when they actually aren't.  The best way to achieve this is simply to lay out your level in a way that always "funnels" the player in the right direction without explicitly pointing them that way.
-If you need to keep your player from wandering off the edge of the world or climbing up its walls, invisible death tiles are the worst thing to use, followed by invisible non-death tiles, followed by arbitrarily unclimbable tiles, followed by visible death tiles such as an ocean, tied with an overhang large enough to be unclimbable (good examples of making this last one appear "natural" can be seen in The Machine and A Strange Dream).

Gameplay:

-NO DEAD ENDS.  EVER.  A "dead end" refers to a point in the level where it is impossible to win.  This is the worst thing you can possibly do in level design.  It's freakishly counterintuitive, extremely frustrating, and just flat-out stupid.  Also, an unintentional dead end is just as bad as an intentional one, so make sure to thoroughly test any parts of a level with the potential to be dead ends.
-Have very frequent save points or save-shifts.  Difficulty by lack of save points is difficulty by repetition, which is always bad.  In "typical" levels like The Machine, one save point every few screens is enough, since challenges are sparse, but levels with many obstacles often warrant many save points on one screen.
-Luck-based or trial-and-error challenges are always bad.  Invisible walls and death objects are trial-and-error.  A lot of the enemies are luck-based when used improperly; Object 4 in the Plants bank is a frequent offender.  Using the retractable spikes in a fashion the player cannot predict is almost as bad as invisible death objects, and arguably more frustrating.
-Don't repeat obstacles.  Doing a really tricky jump once might be fun, but doing it five times is not.  By the same token, avoid challenges which have been used often in other levels.
-Puzzles should not be trial-and-error.  If you can't think of actual puzzles, don't put a "puzzle" in your level.
-Juni's movement is difficult to control with precision, so avoid basing challenges around simple precision, especially if they involve one of the more fiddly components of KS like the umbrella.
-You know Bank 6, Object 5, a.k.a. that green chomper thing, a.k.a. the SandCroc?  Stop putting it in every single frupping screen.  Thank you.

Graphics, music, and other "flavorful" stuff:

-Remember that point about consistency earlier.  Please, please remember that point about consistency earlier.
-If you can't draw/write/compose, don't.  Either get better at it or get someone else to do it for you.
-Giving us something that's good and new is generally better than giving us something that's great but old.  This is why levels with custom content even exist.
-Tearing the graphics and music out of other games is not only usually illegal, it usually makes for a sucky KS level.
-Anyone remember that "Really Custom Levels" section on the old forum?  That one rule about not making your music too loud was there for a reason.

*

Offline Evil

  • 1112
  • 1
  • 1723
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #55 on: February 05, 2010, 09:03:51 »
Make your screens as pretty as possible. Put visually appealing, and harmonious colors, that aren't too bright, or too dark. A nice and flowing background that goes with the tileset, along with depth added by layered [whatever you call those thingies] helps add atmosphere, even without music :)...but juni's footsteps makes it annoying :( And also pick pretty enemies, no one wants something ugly in your very beautiful level [i.e. cat, fairy, those mole things the mole things look like digglet :D .

spam lots of sparkles, and stars, with layer 0 trees on the tiles, and qualitize them later :) very pretty :)

*

Offline Widget

  • 359
  • 27
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2010, 21:04:08 »
 XD

Gotta say I agree (assuming I got your point, Evil  :P2). Visual "fluff" is very low on the list of priorities for me. I'd rather have a brilliantly orchestrated challenge with nothing but the default tiles, music, enemies - hell, anything - than a less well-made level with original, or well-chosen, content or an environmental.

The important part here, though, is that that's just my opinion. Some people will agree (I hope  8D), some will value the aesthetic continuity of a level above all else... some people, I'm sure, think a maze that requires very thorough thought or exploration is more important than either of the previous.

Having this thread is a good idea, but it's only good as long as it can be kept to points that aqre flat-out wrong, no matter what. Inserting your opinion of what makes a level worth playing is counter-productive if it has any possibility of  dissuading someone from creating a level that, while it may not appeal to you, could be a great addition to another's collection.

tl;dr: This is meant to be a thread of indisputable flaws that can appear in a level, rather than a collection of conflicting preferences as to level type or difficulty  :^^: (or discussions of the minutiae of level design.. I admit, in hindsight, I should've created a separate thread to ask if the IWBTG mentality could work in KS  XD)

*

Offline minmay

  • 654
  • 8
    • View Profile
    • Cow Muffins
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #57 on: February 06, 2010, 22:54:50 »
This is meant to be a thread of indisputable flaws that can appear in a level

Well, it's likely that, somewhere, there's someone who thinks every single one of these "flaws" is a good thing to have in your level.  The problem is, it's also likely that there's someone who thinks Batman and Robin was a good movie.

*

Offline Widget

  • 359
  • 27
    • View Profile
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2010, 23:09:44 »
This is meant to be a thread of indisputable flaws that can appear in a level

Well, it's likely that, somewhere, there's someone who thinks every single one of these "flaws" is a good thing to have in your level.  The problem is, it's also likely that there's someone who thinks Batman and Robin was a good movie.

I can see the point you're making but it would need a very strange kind of person to believe a level full of accidental wallswims and voids could count them as merits  :P2

You're right, though, in suggesting that I've pushed the idea a little too far in the other direction, as it were.

It would've been better to say that this is possibly not the right place to present features that would only be a flaw in a given type of level. That is, nothing that would make a bad challenge, but not necessarily impede an environmental. Or vice-versa. Or anything else that is specific to only a particular type of level  :^^: (or difficulty, for that matter. It would be a mistake to suggest that "The Impossible Jump" is a flaw, when it has it's own place. It'd be a flaw in a level that claimed to be easy, for example, but... well, I hope I've cleared up what I was trying to say)  ;)

*

Offline GrayFace

  • 805
  • 61
    • View Profile
    • my site
Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2010, 18:37:42 »
- using autosave where it's not necessary. Especially, when entering an area from which the player can't get back easily. When possible, saving should be done by usual save points.
- a save point, then 1 or more empty (aka environmental) screens and then a challenging screen. Save point should be right before the challenge.

Shifting juni out of a projector or umbrella
In the case of umbrella, make an upward vent to prevent the player from passing the shift with umbrella out.  Otherwise, make a cutscene that saves.
What does this mean?

Cutscene restart
Make it save.  Simplest fix yet.
I don't get this too. I can understand why a cutscene could restart, but I don't understand how there may be a need to save game after cutscene.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 13:41:18 by GrayFace »