[Environmental] Falling Water

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Offline Hmpf

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Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
« Reply #405 on: January 01, 2025, 09:52:36 »
I am bad at math. I'm already at 600 (well, 596), so that plus 100 plus x is something between 700 and 800, not 600 and 700 like I wrote last night at three a.m., of course.

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Offline Hmpf

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Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
« Reply #406 on: January 02, 2025, 16:10:03 »
600
 
(No screenshot because it's from a secret area I only yesterday decided to add.)

And, since I just finally made a list of all of them:

68 tilesets currently in use in the level. -- Definitely not doing a dedicated credits screen detailing all tiles used for each tileset for this level (like I did in Between the Seas, in which the credits are almost longer than the level...) 
« Last Edit: January 03, 2025, 00:43:26 by Hmpf »

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Offline Hmpf

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Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
« Reply #407 on: January 08, 2025, 18:56:21 »
Discord is down and I feel like keeping a running count of my progress on this, so: 620 screens. (I haven't built 20 screens since the last update, I just miscounted a little, earlier. But I have been building one or two screens a day.) The bottom part of the world, i.e. everything that isn't "the Dry Lands" is almost done. I was, originally, planning to release this in three parts, with the Dry Lands (plus some bits of the main level that won't be accessible before visiting the Dry Lands) constituting the third part, and then I decided to make it all one big level instead, and now, since the bottom part is so very nearly finished and the Dry Lands are so very much not, I'm kinda wondering about the split release approach again. Hm.

(I'm saying "so very nearly finished" as if it were, you know, very nearly finished but that's actually not true: aside from maybe 20 screens there's still ambiance, possibly music, and definitely a lot of writing etc. to do. Just the actual building of screens - bar the Dry Lands, and a lot of sky - is very nearly done.)

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Offline Vegetal Gibber

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Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
« Reply #408 on: January 11, 2025, 16:43:55 »
Yeah, what's up with that? We need a few more, err, environmentalists? in this community! You'd think more people would make them, as they're objectively easier to make than challenge levels.

Hmm... In general, I would agree with you especially when it comes to short levels, but I think things have changed somewhat since people first started making KS levels back in the day. While making an Environmental (a pure one) saves you the trouble of having to deal with designing and balancing challenges, I personally also feel somehow "pressured" to bring something else to the plate in exchange (e.g. an exceptionally detailed/unique look, very distinct screens, hidden bonuses to motivate exploring...) in order to really catch and maintain the people's attention... and that may be especially harder to accomplish nowadays, when so many different visual styles, themes and ideas have already been tried out by designers and experienced by players.

In fact, and when it comes to large levels, I believe more planning and work may actually be required to design an environmental level capable of keeping players interested enough to play all the way to the end than you would need for a regular one where you have the challenges/puzzles acting as short-term goals... so I can't help but commend your efforts here!

Then again, I guess the same thing could be argued about people having already seen a lot in terms of interesting/unique challenges at this point... plus, a big reason we keep coming back to creating KS stuff is the fun we have ourselves while designing/building it... so I don't think any of the above should ever demotivate people to keep sharing new stuff  8)

I was, originally, planning to release this in three parts, with the Dry Lands (plus some bits of the main level that won't be accessible before visiting the Dry Lands) constituting the third part, and then I decided to make it all one big level instead, and now, since the bottom part is so very nearly finished and the Dry Lands are so very much not, I'm kinda wondering about the split release approach again. Hm.

Just my two cents here, but if that's the case (the Dry Lands unlocking more stuff in the level, instead of being just a standalone area), then I'd stick to the single release plan for a more cohesive experience... unless you foresee this last area taking a particularly long time to build, in which case something like a "before and after" (visiting the Dry Lands, I mean) two-episode release may make sense here. But this is me speaking blindly without any knowledge of those unlocked areas' sizes :P2
Some KS levels by me:

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Offline Hmpf

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Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
« Reply #409 on: January 12, 2025, 21:24:14 »
Yeah, what's up with that? We need a few more, err, environmentalists? in this community! You'd think more people would make them, as they're objectively easier to make than challenge levels.

Hmm... In general, I would agree with you especially when it comes to short levels, but I think things have changed somewhat since people first started making KS levels back in the day. While making an Environmental (a pure one) saves you the trouble of having to deal with designing and balancing challenges, I personally also feel somehow "pressured" to bring something else to the plate in exchange (e.g. an exceptionally detailed/unique look, very distinct screens, hidden bonuses to motivate exploring...) in order to really catch and maintain the people's attention... and that may be especially harder to accomplish nowadays, when so many different visual styles, themes and ideas have already been tried out by designers and experienced by players.

Well, granted, maybe I would feel differently if I had kept playing for the past ten years and thus seen a lot more (I probably haven't played more than 200-250 levels in total, in my knytting life, and of course most of them I played ten or more years ago). But right now, when I look at just the existing "public" tilesets (including defaults), I still see so many possibilities for interesting visuals that I don't think have been explored - or if they have, haven't been explored to their full potential yet. And once you start combining tilesets - well, the possibilities are (almost) literally endless!

But you're right, of course, that an environmental needs to have a special visual appeal; that's what the genre is about. I guess that just seems comparatively easy to achieve to me because that's just what my brain is good at. Designing challenges feels so much harder. Almost impossibly hard, like I can't even think properly about that kind of thing. Even just thinking of a comparatively simple structure for FW (which is not a challenge level, but does have the four keys in it, so there's some sequence to things, hopefully) felt like it almost broke my brain.

BUT! Speaking to the hypothetical level makers who might want to make small, simple environmentals but feel like it is not worth it: I would totally play them! I still return to some of the classics sometimes, and a lot of them are small and not that complicated in terms of structure. Not everything needs to be Falling Water! Sometimes all you need is A Walk at Night! :D

Because that's also what environmentals are about: just taking a nice, short break, just taking a walk. A sort of short, minimally interactive, visual meditation.

(I feel like KS quite possibly invented the walking sim...)

In fact, and when it comes to large levels, I believe more planning and work may actually be required to design an environmental level capable of keeping players interested enough to play all the way to the end than you would need for a regular one where you have the challenges/puzzles acting as short-term goals... so I can't help but commend your efforts here!

Honestly? Even though I'm trying to give some sort of structure to FW, I myself as a player am perfectly happy to just let myself drift through an entirely open world as long as there is a high rate of attractive/interesting screens to explore. (And probably the structure of FW won't be anything to write home about, so: everybody, adjust your expectations accordingly...) I'd really like to encourage people to just allow themselves to build levels based on the simple fun of... playing with tilesets, essentially. Even if it results in messy, freeform level design reminiscent of outsider art.

Then again, I guess the same thing could be argued about people having already seen a lot in terms of interesting/unique challenges at this point... plus, a big reason we keep coming back to creating KS stuff is the fun we have ourselves while designing/building it... so I don't think any of the above should ever demotivate people to keep sharing new stuff  8)

Indeed! On both points.

I was, originally, planning to release this in three parts, with the Dry Lands (plus some bits of the main level that won't be accessible before visiting the Dry Lands) constituting the third part, and then I decided to make it all one big level instead, and now, since the bottom part is so very nearly finished and the Dry Lands are so very much not, I'm kinda wondering about the split release approach again. Hm.

Just my two cents here, but if that's the case (the Dry Lands unlocking more stuff in the level, instead of being just a standalone area), then I'd stick to the single release plan for a more cohesive experience... unless you foresee this last area taking a particularly long time to build, in which case something like a "before and after" (visiting the Dry Lands, I mean) two-episode release may make sense here. But this is me speaking blindly without any knowledge of those unlocked areas' sizes :P2

Hmm, yeah. I don't know, I need to think about this some more. The "bottom" part isn't even all that finished yet, anyway, of course, so I still have some time to do the thinking...