[Environmental] Falling Water

@everybody who weighed in re: the tileset. Wow, you guys are amazing, it was, indeed, the Mashu Prapa tileset that you guessed! I hadn't even mentioned it was green, I don't think? But maybe it's the only tileset that is that rude, haha.

Good to know it's free to use now, and yeah, that bulk release thing fits what I vaguely remember as to why it might be in my collection despite its rude admonition.

NP, no you didn't mention that, but I stared at those tilesets for a good couple of months for a level. That's the only tileset of his that says that, and I thought it was kinda funny. 
Good to know that it's him too as he asks for credit but rarely signs his tilesets...

Interestingly, Mashu Prapa tilesets don't seem to be on Comhon's archive yet, and the links are dead.

I have all those tilesets on my computer I think, many of them at least. Should I put them somewhere?

I checked out the thread and it said that there is a bug that makes it sometimes insert code into the world file, so I shied back from it, for now.

No, it's the opposite.
As VG said in that post:
"Just to be completely clear, this is not something caused by this tool.
If you get an incorrect (and absurdly high) number of screens when using the program on a level, it means the Map.bin file already had this issue from the start."

It can only check the Map.bin, it won't modify it.

Anyway, to use it, I usually copy-paste the Map.bin into the ksmapsize folder, and drag and drop it on the exe.
Because it doesn't need to be the original Map.bin, it could be a copy of course.

I have all those tilesets on my computer I think, many of them at least. Should I put them somewhere?

You should tell Comhon about it.
But they should be among Hmpf's 500+ tilesets, so you might not need to add them if she adds those.

Quote from: Hmpf on August 02, 2023, 11:10:15

I checked out the thread and it said that there is a bug that makes it sometimes insert code into the world file, so I shied back from it, for now.

No, it's the opposite.
As VG said in that post:
"Just to be completely clear, this is not something caused by this tool.
If you get an incorrect (and absurdly high) number of screens when using the program on a level, it means the Map.bin file already had this issue from the start."

It can only check the Map.bin, it won't modify it.

Anyway, to use it, I usually copy-paste the Map.bin into the ksmapsize folder, and drag and drop it on the exe.
Because it doesn't need to be the original Map.bin, it could be a copy of course.

Ahhh, thanks for clarifying. I read that thread somewhat cursorily, I'm afraid. The tool still won't be much use to me immediately, as I'd have to clean up my map considerably first (too many "sketch"/experimental areas - I have a bad habit of trying out stuff on random screens on the edges of the map, often in many many different variations, so if I auto-counted the map now the screencount would be inflated considerably).

Also, general question, not just about that tool: When counting screens, do "duplicate" screens (for warp/shift-powered dialogue or other stuff like that) count as separate screens? Or do only unique screens count?

Quote from: bulbapuck on August 02, 2023, 12:08:37

I have all those tilesets on my computer I think, many of them at least. Should I put them somewhere?

You should tell Comhon about it.
But they should be among Hmpf's 500+ tilesets, so you might not need to add them if she adds those.

Yeah, they are. I'll upload that stuff soon, but probably only after my vacation because our internet connection here is extremely slow and keeps cutting out. So, in another week and a half, probably.

Did a manual count yesterday because I was too tired to do anything that required actual awareness, and the number of screens was 557 (hand-built, accessible, non-repeating). +1 now since I just made another.

Note that that number does include a few screens containing nothing but the upper part of some background feature like mountains, trees, roofs. And a few screens that have very little built stuff on them, just the corner or the top of some climbable feature. But mostly it's properly "walkable" screens.

A number that may be even more interesting than the screencount: FW pt. 2 currently has around 35 distinct areas. I say "around" because "distinct" is actually a tricky concept here - lots of internal variation, lots of transitional areas, etc. Kinda hard to draw boundaries around areas in this thing.

There's three or four major gaps to fill in the lower part of the world (4-5 areas, I'd say), plus the top layer of the world (5-8 areas, probably).

I'm currently mostly filling in small gaps and am looking forward to getting started on actual new areas soon(ish).

As you can see I've grown rather careful with screenshots, haha. I'm kinda glad most of the links to the screenshots in this thread are broken nowadays. Would ppl like more screenshots here again? I could oblige, but I'm not sure if it's a good idea.

558 screens is so crazy to me, exciting

I love seeing screenshots, but I also see the value in holding off on posting.
Ultimately it's what you feel is best. If you're hesitating on posting I think it's perfectly reasonable to hold off on it. Happy to get just updates on this too

Quick last-day-of-my-vacation screencount update: 566 total. Not a very productive week because it was filled with visiting family I rarely see.

No new screens today; spent several hours today producing a hand-drawn map of the "problem areas" of the level. Not sure it will help. I feel like there should be some sense of... direction/progression, to the level, even if it's a free-roaming environmental level; but the world I built is far too interconnected and open for that. And I'm discovering that I don't know how to change this after the fact. Maybe I'll just have to accept it. But I'll keep staring at this map for a few more days. Maybe I'll find a way yet. Maybe not.

Total screencount is currently 579 because in this exercise I found a few screens I'd forgotten to count. (But I also built a few new ones, since my last update here - about ten, I think. So that's ten new screens and three "overlooked" ones.)

I've thought about that problem a lot with my level too, of course yours is on a completely different level, but still.

I plan to try and solve it using the detector (and some cutscenes I think). I have a story-related reason why that would work, but either way I think the key is to guide the player by catching their attention.
Maybe tease an area that they can't get to yet, and once they get the required upgrade hope that they remembered it. Things like that.

Though with this level in particular I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'm personally looking forward to exploring everything and don't think I'll mind terribly if I lack direction for a moment

I've thought about that problem a lot with my level too, of course yours is on a completely different level, but still.

I plan to try and solve it using the detector (and some cutscenes I think). I have a story-related reason why that would work, but either way I think the key is to guide the player by catching their attention.
Maybe tease an area that they can't get to yet, and once they get the required upgrade hope that they remembered it. Things like that.

Yeah, I just don't see any way how I can retrofit my level to anything like that at this stage.

Though with this level in particular I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'm personally looking forward to exploring everything and don't think I'll mind terribly if I lack direction for a moment

I guess I kinda have to bank on that, haha.

(Sorry about the late reply, I took a week off from knytting to focus on writing instead, because I'm also in the middle of writing the longest, most ridiculous story I've ever written, and that writing week was then followed by an extraordinarily busy "real life" week.)

Latest screen count is 581 and it's not likely to grow very quickly from here on out, for the next few weeks at least, because I'm in a more conceptual phase now - I have to think about what to do with the remaining larger unbuilt spaces on the map. And also think a bit more on ways to maybe redesign what's already built, at least in minor ways, to fix at least some of the gameplay issues.

Have started working on this again, after (mostly) finishing Between the Seas.

Still working on this one, too, although I do have to admit I got pretty sidetracked by making two entire, new, small levels in the past few months, and starting to conceptualise my next big project, too.

Five new screens since last count; unfortunately still having major issues with the actual level design. I don't think this will ever be anything but an (interesting? hopefully?) mess.

Terrible year, creatively, completely blocked on everything, everywhere. But I've finally managed to get started again, over the past few days. Currently making a lot of unwise decisions re: screen/level design. And having fun while doing so.

(Preliminary version of a screen that doesn'tquite work yet attached. I've got a lot of screens like that at the moment. Oh no.)
 

Oh man, I remember trying out the preview version a long long time ago, and since then, I've been occasionally checking out this thread along the years. It's great to see Falling Water still chugging along!   Speaking as someone who also tends to put a tad too many waterfalls in his levels, I'm looking forward to eventually trying out the finished level, especially since we have so few pure environmental level releases nowadays.

The screen you posted looks really nice, even if it may seem somewhat confusing to navigate at first glance (I'm assuming the only solid parts are the gray slabs...?) But hey, it's an environmental after all, so it should be all about roaming and climbing semi-aimlessly while admiring the landscape

Oh man, I remember trying out the preview version a long long time ago, and since then, I've been occasionally checking out this thread along the years. It's great to see Falling Water still chugging along!   Speaking as someone who also tends to put a tad too many waterfalls in his levels, I'm looking forward to eventually trying out the finished level, especially since we have so few pure environmental level releases nowadays.

Yeah, what's up with that? We need a few more, err, environmentalists? in this community! You'd think more people would make them, as they're objectively easier to make than challenge levels.

The screen you posted looks really nice, even if it may seem somewhat confusing to navigate at first glance (I'm assuming the only solid parts are the gray slabs...?)

Yeah, in the last couple of years, ever since picking up this project again, I've been kind of obsessed with backgrounds that are basically part of the "landscape", and also with multi-level screens and stuff like that (I mean, to some degree I always was, see also the "skyscrapers" with the scaffolding in the already released city part of this level.) I'm actually planning to tone that stuff down a lot in my next big level, though, because honestly, trying to make KS do these things it's really not meant for is breaking my brain. So the next one is going to be a bit more traditional, though I'm keeping the theme of having the backgrounds really be part of the architecture of the places depicted. I guess I'm constantly looking for ways to bring the third dimension into this very 2D platformer!

But hey, it's an environmental after all, so it should be all about roaming and climbing semi-aimlessly while admiring the landscape

Indeed. Though I think I've finally figured out how to have this have a bit of direction, actually, literally yesterday morning, and spent the whole evening implementing the necessary changes. (Not fully done yet, but getting there.) If it works like I imagine, that'll be one major roadblock out of the way. Unfortunately there are a few more yet: I haven't actually written any of the dialogue etc. yet, and am in fact still somewhat unclear on many details of Falling Water's history; and I need to learn how to make and record music that can be used in a level. No small task, that last one...

I also still need to put in a load of shifts/warps. (Ugh.)

As for building screens, I don't think there are actually all that many left to build - slightly more than 100, I'd guess, and the building of screens has always been the fastest part of all this. I think at some point I guesstimated the final size as around 700 screens, and it seems likely that it'll be something between 600 and 700 now. That's only the "walkable" screens, though. There's going to be a lot of sky, too, but I'm not counting that.