Knytt Online World

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Offline Gaeel

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2009, 15:52:31 »
I agree with the "keep it simple" philosophy.

I believe in players will be enthralled by having a KOW, even if the map is static and there are no objects. Bells and whistles can be added later.

Let's just see a nice smooth-working netcode, and go from there.

Also, about decisions like how locked doors and special objects should react. I think if special gameplay things are to be decided, the inter-player physics might be a more interesting device :

There could be buttons that need to be held down to open doors, so one player would have to hold the button while the other goes through.
A lso maybe make it possible to piggy-back another player to help him reach a higher ledge? (that one might be hard, but it'd make coop gameplay fun)

Those are just ideas though, I say a working game where two or more people can explore the world together would be awesome by itself anyway.
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Offline Joozey

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2009, 17:11:11 »
Quote
In order to connect to a mysql database, you must have mysql installed locally. If you have a webserver with mysql installed on it, it is most likelly the case that a firewall blocks your connection to mysql because its not locally. You can talk with your webhosting to verify that, and they might be able to open a connection for your ip so you can develop.

My hostings, Nifflas' hosting and J's hosting, all block mysql connections if they're not locally unless you have an IP added to the whitelist of the firewall and in Nifflas' and my case, also in cPanel.

Ofcource, you could also compile the build, upload it, and then test

Well, that's actually a funny story. When I bought a domain on my host, applications could hook up on that domain's database just fine. Then they changed security policies, and gone was my connection. I sent them mails, and they offered me to move to a different server where this was still allowed. I gladly accepted. Now they closed this server's external security as well, and I am tired of mailing them once again. But since it's so cheap (~20 euro a year) I stick to here.

So, now I have a database set up locally. But for some reason, since a reinstall of Vista nothing seems to work fine anymore. phpMyAdmin works via my local web server, but applications still can't connect to the database. It's not an issue of MMF2, because more of my C applications refuse to work.

(to be continued...)


As for the browser stuff.

Vitalize is a plugin made by clickteam to put games online.
Here is a page with all kinds of multimedia fusion games:
http://www.madword.com/

So it's perfectly possible.


Quote
There could be buttons that need to be held down to open doors, so one player would have to hold the button while the other goes through.
A lso maybe make it possible to piggy-back another player to help him reach a higher ledge? (that one might be hard, but it'd make coop gameplay fun)
Yes it makes coop fun, but also deviates alot from the original game, which I feel somewhat bad about. If people make games for online multiplayer, I think they should still be playable on single player, just to not ruin the fun for those who have very limited availability to the internet. IMO, Knytt is one of those games that should be available to everyone, with or without internet. And that includes the custom levels. I'd be pretty disappointed if I could not play an awesome looking level just because it's multiplayer only.

Anyway, it's just a matter of opinion. I'm not sure if that statement is even valid in practice.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 17:14:42 by Joozey »
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Offline LPChip

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2009, 21:20:24 »
Okay :)

It makes me wonder how hard it would be to create something like this using php and javascript.

I think its possible and not that hard.

Php->image to generate the screen, javascript to control characters moving on it. If necessary you could make it to draw each tile so the loading time would be less. Then somehow move a knytt ontop of it by move an image across the screen. It'll be harder to get the animation right, but I think it'll work. There doesn't have to be all kinds of powerups like Knytt Stories, just the regular move/jump would be enough. Optionally a shift to create teleportation so you can say... move into a house etc.
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Offline Joozey

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2009, 21:57:38 »
If you manage to communicate between MMF2 and PHP, you may be able to generate one screen... but no more. You probably don't want to refresh the page with a max speed of a frame per two seconds...

Browser plugins don't usually use php, but handle the stream they receive from the server and forward it to your video device.
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Offline LPChip

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2009, 22:34:52 »
Php is not the output. Php generates output.

Basically it goes like this: Server->php->html->browser.

So communicating between PHP and MMF2 would be the same as to communicate between php and the browser. Through cookies and printing directly on the screen.

But since php will only load the page once and then it has to refresh, the only thing you want php to do is render the background which happens when you enter/leave a screen. The moving of players etc, would be done using javascript.
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Offline Joozey

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2009, 00:12:22 »
Aha, I understand what you mean. Then I too think this is very well possible. You just have to create a small knytt binary or folder parser into readable (hint: XML) data.
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Offline LPChip

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2009, 21:38:24 »
I wouldn't use XML for that. mySQL would be more sufficient for that too, because its very fast, and combining the control it gives you, it can actually outperform file operations.
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Offline Looki

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #37 on: April 06, 2009, 22:33:07 »
If you manage to communicate between MMF2 and PHP, you may be able to generate one screen... but no more. You probably don't want to refresh the page with a max speed of a frame per two seconds...

Browser plugins don't usually use php, but handle the stream they receive from the server and forward it to your video device.

Little off-topic, but http://looki.icr38.net/knytt/maps/ :P

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Offline Joozey

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2009, 09:15:08 »
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I wouldn't use XML for that. mySQL would be more sufficient for that too, because its very fast, and combining the control it gives you, it can actually outperform file operations.
MySQL is for storing data, but I believe what you want is not needed to be stored. MySQL is fast, but slower than XML, and it's transfer overkill. Nevertheless it's possible through a database. If you want more features instead of just showing one image of a level, then it might be more handy to use one.

Quote
Little off-topic, but http://looki.icr38.net/knytt/maps/ :P
That looks good, but what is it doing exactly? Unwrapping the binary and show all graphics? Would be fun if you manage to capture a live stream from a knytt game, so you can see the player :).
« Last Edit: April 07, 2009, 09:18:07 by Joozey »
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Offline Dynamite

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2009, 08:41:55 »
farout..I feel like working on Knytt Online again..but I'll never finish it :(

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Offline LPChip

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2009, 20:25:35 »
MySQL is for storing data, but I believe what you want is not needed to be stored. MySQL is fast, but slower than XML, and it's transfer overkill. Nevertheless it's possible through a database. If you want more features instead of just showing one image of a level, then it might be more handy to use one.

I know. I'm actually thinking of generating stuff rather than showing just one image, because just one image generates alot of bandwidth for a screenload, while storing each tile in a tileset and then loading a map with images like that, will be alot faster (if done properly).

But I guess my optimisation knowledge is not really usefull if you don't know how, and I can imagine that its already very hard to get just one image to show up and then have interaction being done on it.
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Offline Dynamite

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2009, 05:08:21 »
I have thought of how I would want a knytt online game to be like. Nothing like what you guys had in mind really...

Ok, Knytt online would be about making levels and then share them and play them online.
Knytt online would have the same editor as knytt stories only that it would be upgraded so
it has more stuff. First thing is a new layer that will make things go in front of the player.
Then more objects like everything from first knytt game and much more.

When the level is done you go into knytt online and upload it to the knytt online database.
In the level database players can see the newest and most popular levels. They can also see
how many people plays the levels. And for more fun the players can leave comments and rate the
levels.

You aces the levels from a special building (or something else) in a main world where most players is. In the main world you can play mini games with other players and other  fun stuff.

The interface is simple, it has a message-box, friend and ignore boxes and shows what power ups you have.


Thats how I would want a knytt online game to be.
Please read the whole thing
The idea of having lots of different levels in one big database and having everyone play them isn't really what I wanted, and I really don't like it for many reasons:

1) Someone could be making a forest level but then someone else could be making a desert level, and there won't be a gap of levels in between.
2) The tilesets will be different for every level which will make the graphic style change a lot
3) The levels might not join together..and I wouldn't want to modify a few 100 levels once they're submitted just to make them connect.
and
4) The difficulty style will range to very easy to lunatic for each person's level..which could get annoying.

As I was thinking about all the other ways that the concept of uploading you levels and making them into a giant world..I then came up with a solution, and a much better idea (that's my opinion).

My Idea is not a Knytt online game but a Knytt Online Level editor. What happens is that instead of you creating your levels by yourself, the level editor will be online. So there will be like 20 people working on the one level and you can see everything they're doing. Like I could even make it so you can see the other players mouse cursors.
But that's the first part. Once everyone works together to make the whole world then the next part is to actually play the game. And what makes it even better is that if you get bored of the world you can easily add more levels to it.

If you still don't know what I mean then it's pretty much like having a Real Time Based Level editor where everyone can see each other building stuff. My whole plan for Knytt Online was to have one huge world instead of lots of different levels.

So what do you think?
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 05:11:04 by Dynamite »

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Offline googoogjoob

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2009, 07:15:32 »
I can't really see having that sort of immediate collaboration working out very well. (Getting 20 people to agree on something would take a while.) But just allowing submissions would cause just as many problems. I think it'd work best to have some sort of master plan for the layout of the entire game (that is, like, different areas and their themes and sizes, and how they relate to each other), and then specifically ask well-regarded level-makers to make levels according to these specifications. (Like, "make a desert level X tiles wide and Y tiles high, using this tileset, and with no mandatory jumps of over three tiles width.") That way, it'd be possible to strictly regulate the difficulty and transitions and such, but also allow variety in the style of different individual areas.
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Offline Joozey

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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2009, 11:22:48 »
Quote
1) Someone could be making a forest level but then someone else could be making a desert level, and there won't be a gap of levels in between.
2) The tilesets will be different for every level which will make the graphic style change a lot
3) The levels might not join together..and I wouldn't want to modify a few 100 levels once they're submitted just to make them connect.
and
4) The difficulty style will range to very easy to lunatic for each person's level..which could get annoying.

1) I don't get 1. A gap?
2) Why different? If someone host with a custom level which the client doesn't have yet, the host simply sends the file and the client waits and installs it.
3) Modify? 100 levels? Connect? Eh?  :/
4) The difficulty level is of course different for every person, but if you think server A has an annoying level, then you just join server B, big deal :P.

Perhaps you've gotten the wrong idea of what I'm making there. You can either join a server, or be a server. Being a server will place you on a list, the lobby. One particular level will be loaded for now, but in the future you may select a level you wish. You can then wait for people to join. You, as a client, can simply join by going to the lobby, where every server's IP is shown, and select one, press play, and load the level (if you don't have it yet, you'll download it automatically). So, there's not one gigantic big world, there may be many. If you feel like hosting one, then you got one.

I think your idea about the online editor is nice, but you'll nonetheless get stuck on the same reasons you got stuck with Knytt Online. However, I don't see much more fun in an online editor than the more simple way of hosting and joining online games by individual people.
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Re: Knytt Online World
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2009, 20:10:54 »
1) Someone could be making a forest level but then someone else could be making a desert level, and there won't be a gap of levels in between.
2) The tilesets will be different for every level which will make the graphic style change a lot
3) The levels might not join together..and I wouldn't want to modify a few 100 levels once they're submitted just to make them connect.
and
4) The difficulty style will range to very easy to lunatic for each person's level..which could get annoying
That sounds like KE.
Lurk more.