[Hard, Short-ish, Miscellaneous] Will's Grand Scheme

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Offline Ultigonio

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[Hard, Short-ish, Miscellaneous] Will's Grand Scheme
« on: August 18, 2010, 09:43:49 »
Alright!  So, this is essentially my first Knytt Stories level - I got started on it about 2-3 years ago, and just recently gave up on finishing.  It does have a few interesting bits here and there, but it's not absolutely fantastic--I did enjoy playtesting some parts of it, though, and it can be fairly challenging in some parts.  I still REALLY need the feedback, especially criticism. I DID spend quite a bit of time on this, despite its short length.
DOWNLOAD LINK RIGHT HERE.  (It's 25 MB or so; mostly from the music.)
http://www.mediafire.com/?dj49bib9mc0x5kd
While playing this level, keep in mind that it is technically unfinished, and never will be.  I just need the feedback.
Features:
A little voice-acting from yours truly.
A cute little custom icon.  Okay, it's not cute, but still.
1 Custom gradient (but 3 or so different variations of said gradient)
3 (I think) unfinished custom tilesets.
No stock music (mostly music taken from games).
2 or so custom tunes, not of the best quality, but okay.
A completely unexpected cutoff in the middle of nowhere.  Sorry, I just wanted this thing out of my face so I could get some feedback on my level style.
An unfinished storyline that doesn't make any sense as is.

So, yeah, feedback would be very appreciated.  I'm beginning work on a new, much more well-planned Knytt Story.  Expect screenshots in the preview forum sometime soon.

EDIT:  Something I forgot to mention:  I AM aware that this level is extremely linear.  I tried to vary it in certain parts as much as I could.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 23:37:06 by Ultigonio »
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Offline lamarblake

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Re: [Normal, Short-ish, Experimental] Will's Grand Scheme
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2010, 18:24:04 »
Ok. I'm not a level maker so I never feel totally qualified to be overly critical. I will say this though. You probably haven't gotten any feedback yet because, in your post, you certainly don't make the level seem enjoyable enough for anyone to take the time to download it and give it a go. I mean and I quote, "the ideas are badly put together and not thought out, and there are lots of other problems". Ok then, I guess I'll just pass this one by since the author doesn't think it's any good. Well, I did play it and it wasn't all bad.

1. I liked the new music. I love easy jazz if that's what you want to call it.

2. What's wrong with linear if it's interesting to look at and challenging to play? (ok it was kind of a mish mash visually but many levels have nothing so....AND it was challenging.

3. Ok, two areas make me not want to play this again. The first was the area after you get high jump. The place with all the arrows and heads. Lot's of wall swims and very confusing. The other place is near the end...in total darkness until you get light. Things like total darkness and invisible kill spots in knytt stories is a gamebreaker for me. I "god moded" Juni right out of both.

4. You're right about the story line but then again, in my opinion, levels don't have to have storylines at all to be fun.

5. I liked the use of shifts (?) to change the water levels and such. And the buttons that do something somewhere else. Thought that was innovative. At least I can't remember another level that did that...but then I have over 800 of them now....

Ok, not as horrible as you initially made out but certainly not perfect as you well know.

And, keep in mind this critique is from a level player not a designer.

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Offline Bas

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Re: [Normal, Short-ish, Experimental] Will's Grand Scheme
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2010, 18:45:35 »
Nice level, although there are some wallswims and things like that. But that's what you said, it isn't a finished level.

A really liked the (water) switches part!

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Offline yohji

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Re: [Normal, Short-ish, Experimental] Will's Grand Scheme
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2010, 20:50:10 »
Very ambitious for a first level, which is a good thing, I guess. My main problem with the level was the visual side of it - it's great that you tried making your own tilesets, but I'm afraid they just don't look very good... Everything is either too basic (tiles with just color, no texture at all) or looks like badly drawn plastic blocks (tiles with soft edges). Pixel art can be much more subtle - check out KS levels such as Salmoneus's "Underground House", or Farik's "The Hunt".

Another problem was the inconsistency, which is somewhat typical for first levels. Sometimes Juni can climb a wall, sometimes she can't. Sometimes she can jump into a tile, sometimes she can't. No way to distinguish between such tiles visually, and so it leads to bad surprises during playing. At one point the green area (where you start) is linear, but then suddenly it becomes warped for a couple of screens, then goes back to linear again; as a result, the entire area doesn't feel coherent at all. At one point there's a screen where you die if you fall to the lowest row of tiles, which comes as a complete surprise for the player, and again, this just happens on a single screen and cannot be foreseen visually. Why would Juni die? It's not logical from the level's point of view. It's only logical from yours - she dies because if she falls, she lands into a screen that just happens to be underneath, which shouldn't happen. A better way to design would be to make sure future screens are not in the way, and the fall is fatal because of, say, water or something. And so on, the examples are numerous.

On the bright side, the ambition is really impressive - voice acting, custom tilesets, buttons that can be pressed, and so on. I'm looking forward to your future levels.

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Offline Ultigonio

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Re: [Normal, Short-ish, Experimental] Will's Grand Scheme
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2010, 01:16:15 »
Okay time for a really long response post I guess.
Quote from: lamarblake
...you certainly don't make the level seem enjoyable enough for anyone to take the time to download it and give it a go. I mean and I quote, "the ideas are badly put together and not thought out, and there are lots of other problems". Ok then, I guess I'll just pass this one by since the author doesn't think it's any good. Well, I did play it and it wasn't all bad.
...
2. What's wrong with linear if it's interesting to look at and challenging to play? (ok it was kind of a mish mash visually but many levels have nothing so....AND it was challenging.

3. Ok, two areas make me not want to play this again. The first was the area after you get high jump. The place with all the arrows and heads. Lot's of wall swims and very confusing. The other place is near the end...in total darkness until you get light. Things like total darkness and invisible kill spots in knytt stories is a gamebreaker for me. I "god moded" Juni right out of both.
...
5. I liked the use of shifts (?) to change the water levels and such. And the buttons that do something somewhere else....
For the starting bit, you're absolutely right--I've actually edited the post a bit to make the level seem a bit more worth playing to people in the future who will view this topic.  Good advice, thank you very much.

2.  Yeah, I've looked at the tilesets and all that and I've got a better idea of what I'm going to do next time.

3.  I figured that bit with the arrows wouldn't go over well.  There's actually an idea behind it that makes it easier to navigate, but that's never elaborated on, so it probably just leaves the player confused....

5.  Awesome!  In fact, the water level bit was actually my favorite for both playtesting and making.  I'm glad you liked it.

Quote from: Bas
Nice level, although there are some wallswims and things like that. But that's what you said, it isn't a finished level.

A really liked the (water) switches part!
 Awesome!  I guess the water level has gone over pretty well with some.

Quote from: yohji
Very ambitious for a first level, which is a good thing, I guess. My main problem with the level was the visual side of it - it's great that you tried making your own tilesets, but I'm afraid they just don't look very good... Everything is either too basic (tiles with just color, no texture at all) or looks like badly drawn plastic blocks (tiles with soft edges). Pixel art can be much more subtle - check out KS levels such as Salmoneus's "Underground House", or Farik's "The Hunt".
I actually have played a few levels by Farik, namely "Harvest" and "Homeland", all fairly interesting.  I'll take a look at that one. I'll look over "Underground House", too.  I'll try to apply what I learn from it in the level I'm working on now, with my own personal flare.  It could be good for inspiration, too....

Quote from: yohji
Another problem was the inconsistency, which is somewhat typical for first levels. Sometimes Juni can climb a wall, sometimes she can't. Sometimes she can jump into a tile, sometimes she can't. No way to distinguish between such tiles visually, and so it leads to bad surprises during playing. At one point the green area (where you start) is linear, but then suddenly it becomes warped for a couple of screens, then goes back to linear again; as a result, the entire area doesn't feel coherent at all.
You mean after the big button is pressed, right?  Yeah, that was pretty much an attempt to extend of the length of that segment. Unless you're talking about the part where everything is floating and there's a warp that makes the player fall endlessly....  
Quote from: yohji
At one point there's a screen where you die if you fall to the lowest row of tiles, which comes as a complete surprise for the player, and again, this just happens on a single screen and cannot be foreseen visually. Why would Juni die? It's not logical from the level's point of view. It's only logical from yours - she dies because if she falls, she lands into a screen that just happens to be underneath, which shouldn't happen. A better way to design would be to make sure future screens are not in the way, and the fall is fatal because of, say, water or something. And so on, the examples are numerous.
 Actually, from a player's standpoint, you're right--that makes absolutely no sense.  I didn't even think of that.

Quote from: yohji
On the bright side, the ambition is really impressive - voice acting, custom tilesets, buttons that can be pressed, and so on. I'm looking forward to your future levels.
If it shows ambition/potential, then I've done a good enough job for a first time, I suppose.

So, as a note to self, the main issues are lack of explanation, inconsistency, and messy tilesets.  I'll keep that in mind.  Thanks for the comments, guys!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 01:32:12 by Ultigonio »
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Offline Healy

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Re: [Hard, Short-ish, Miscellaneous] Will's Grand Scheme
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2012, 02:52:55 »
I picked this up off the level archives the other day, and even though I didn't get much farther than the beginning green area, I liked it. Like other people have said, it's a choppy experince, but somehow that just adds to the charm. Quick question: Did you write the music for the green area? It's really catchy, and I was wondering if it would be okay for me to use it in one of my levels.