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Temporary => Knytt Stories Level Releases => Topic started by: Talps on March 09, 2021, 02:18:59

Title: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Talps on March 09, 2021, 02:18:59

I recall a grey warren of silent people, thinking of cold and shadow

---

Click here to download Petals II (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/Talps%20-%20Petals%20II.knytt.bin)

Nine years, eleven months and nine days ago (yes, you're ooooold!), I released my first non-epic-length KS level, 'Petals of a Dying Flower'.

Later I had the idea of rebuilding part of that level with more complex graphics and colours and adding it to a rerelease of the level as a secret bonus. That idea turned into a full recreation of the level, and this is the result. You can decide if it's a sequel or a remake.

Petals II retells the story of a knytt woman setting out from her home in search of something more.

A special mention to Vegetal Gibber who helped me make this level look as lovely as it does, and for coming up with the idea of giving a knytt a lantern to carry her through the dark.

Hope you have fun!

(https://nifflas.lp1.nl/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7234.0;attach=9744;image)

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Polana on March 09, 2021, 22:10:51

Wow, just finished.
When I started playing, I was not very fond of the graphics of the first part and longed for the minimalistic style of first Petals, but I soon started liking it. That blue castle and underground garden are superb. 9/10 would play again.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Also, this is the most complicated way of showing photos from Andes I've ever seen.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Purple Ink on March 11, 2021, 00:38:03

Absolutely amazing level, Talps. Awesome graphics, fantastic music, great challenges, sweet COs, and intriguing story. This is definitely your best level so far! :D I really enjoyed that some original screens from the first Petals reappeared here. Really nice to see those challenges again with a fresh coat of paint. The secrets were great too. This level is just about perfect. I have one complaint but I'll spoiler it to not ruin a section of the level for others. So don't read it if you haven't played yet. Or do. I'm not your mom.

Spoiler: Complaint (click to show/hide)

I found the in-the-dark chase sequence unfun. Like, really unfun. Having to blindly guess which path was correct only to find hidden chasers was frustrating. It felt like a game of death-guess where you have to guess the path, die, find the right path only to do the same thing again on the next screen. Being so dark was probably the thing that just really killed the enjoyment for that section. Having only a screen or two might have been fine but having a whole section utilitsing that gameplay was just unfun to me.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Talps on March 11, 2021, 01:24:52

Glad you both enjoyed. :)

I'm curious as to which secrets you found, Purple Ink. :P

Spoiler: Polana (click to show/hide)

The photos are supposed to tell part of the story, of the character escaping down from the mountains and out into the world to explore. I didn't want to use random (and potentially copywrited) images from the internet though, and my options were a bit limited with my own photos, so I'm not sure I demonstrated it as well as I'd hoped.

Spoiler: Purple Ink (click to show/hide)

Sorry you found that section so hard. I was worried about the difficulty but wanted to risk it; I wanted to create some tension and give a sense of being hunted, of things being out of your control. If you found the secret flower in that area, you might have an idea of the atmosphere I wanted to create. Both my testers were ok there and one said it was his favourite section, but I can tell it wouldn't be to everyone's tastes. I'm glad it didn't taint the whole experience for you.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Purple Ink on March 11, 2021, 01:43:54

I don't know what secrets I found because I don't know how many there are in total. :crazy:

Spoiler: complaint stuff (click to show/hide)

I wouldn't say it was hard exactly. As in, it wasn't hard to go through once I knew which way was correct. I made it more difficult than it needed to be. I just watched ixMarcel and he did it much faster. I guess part of it is my poor eyesight making it difficult to see in that kind of darkness. I did find the flower but didn't connect it to the section overall. Guess that's one of the things I'll have to do on my next playthrough.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Evgenii Shiriaev on March 11, 2021, 10:39:40

I found 2 artifacts (and I now where the 3rd) and 1 golden creature (how many are there?). Good level. Thank you, Talps.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: GrayFace on March 11, 2021, 14:03:37

Great level! As beautiful as it is, some of its problems I'd say are serious. Here are problems I've encountered:
1) You can't explore. That is, you always get blocked by an autosave cutscene or a spiky enemy. You have to guess right which routes won't lead to story progress and manage to always choose them if you want all the secrets. Also, I always get an uneasy feeling when levels have this problem.
2) Getting extremely shortsighted with darkness for a long time. Being so shortsighted doesn't feel good.
These two are the big ones for me, they contribute to 3:
3) Felt monotonous over the course of dark areas despite certain changes in visuals until I get to the last area (before regular ending).
4) Luck-based dark spiders are kinda annoying when you are short-sighted. You can't avoid them meaningfully with all the shirt-sighting darkness and dark background.
I got 3 artifacts on 1st playthrough. Gonna do 2nd.

2nd playthrough: found all I could - 5 artifacts, but only 4 goldens. So, had to cheat a little to get the secret ending. Also used level editor to find how to get the hologram of the last area of the level.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: pfrangip on March 12, 2021, 20:32:31

This is a great level. It was a lot more challenging than I expected! And there was a TON to do! I only found I think two collectibles and two golden creatures. I plan to replay with an eye for exploration.

Spoiler: Ellaboration (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Good Things (click to show/hide)

• This level was gorgeous in a lot of ways.
• I especially loved all of the "structure" tilesets, and the mushroom area.
• I enjoyed the chaser challenges.
• There were many, many multiple paths which elicited an organic, open-world feel.
• The "player fell in the water" portion was especially immersive and really felt like a "land of the dead" like moment.

Spoiler: Not so good things (click to show/hide)

When I first played this level, I felt a bit disappointed, and I think the negative feelings came from one place: trying to compare it to the original Petals of a Dying Flower. In a way, I feel like PoaDF and Petals II are a bit like Portal and Portal II. The original is short, highly stylized, with a narrow focus on a single theme. The sequel is technically superior in every way, with better visuals, better challenges, more enemies, a larger area, more to see and more to do... but it never manages to evoke that same feeling the original did.  And maybe that's okay, maybe it isn't supposed to. But I can't help but compare the two. Maybe if the name of this level were "Forbidden Cave" or "Monster Den" I wouldn't be trying to compare them, and Petals II wouldn't be living in the shadow of PoaDF.

I replayed the original after finishing Petals II to make sure I wasn't misremembering. So here are my comparisons:

• Petals II is very, very busy. The original was an empty, desolate cave, but this cave is just teeming with life. Every screen seems to have a dozen or more creatures, and the ruins have ghosts and shadow people just everywhere. Instead of feeling isolated, I felt overwhelmed. This is no dead, forgotten cave, this is a crowded colony. In the original, I was trying to get out to find something, anything. In Petals II, I'm trying to get out to get away from everything.
  
• There are a LOT of hazards. The original felt -almost- environmental in how sparsely enemies were used. Petals II feels like enemies are just everywhere. I feel like I can't jump from one platform to another without there being a hazardous enemy to avoid. This makes it more challenging which is good, but also feels more tedious, which is not so good.
• I liked how almost all of the enemies in the original were dark/black/stylized. They fit the theme very well, and gave the level a uniquely isolating feel. They were just another part of the environment. All of the standard colorful shooty enemies in Petals II kind of broke the immersion a little bit. In particular, I remember being almost in awe after landing in the "land of the dead" area, before the immersion quickly broke after dying to an out-of-sight one-eyed sparkle shooter several times.
• I think the biggest double-edged sword is the many paths, the "open" world. The original really has one path to take, with a few secrets to reward diligent explorers. Petals II has paths, alternate paths, hidden paths, secrets, collectibles, and more. I was never sure what was a true "secret" versus "the correct path" versus "a scenic detour." This is absolutely great because it makes the world feel bigger, more interactive, and there is more to do, but it's not so great because it creates some confusion.

All in all, I think the original PoaDF will always hold a special place in my heart, and I think both excel at different things.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Polana on March 14, 2021, 00:43:10

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I got that they are supposed to show outside world, but not going down from mountains. I hope I didn't come off as mocking it. I liked the photos.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Purple Ink on March 14, 2021, 02:18:22

As I'm replaying it I find myself agreeing with pfrangip. There are a lot of enemies and things. Is it too many? Who's to say but it can distract from the scenery, especially on a second playthrough.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Comhon on March 24, 2021, 17:24:43

I haven't played the original Petals, so fortunately I don't have to compare it. I loved the mushroom caves part the most, so visually appealing! And the music! The enemies bothered me a bit, but it was the most beautiful area I recently visited in Knytt Stories. I reminded me the feelings having playing the start area of Frozen Mountain 2. When I came back into the plain dark, I felt was very sad this area was over.

I might need an another playthrough, since I did not find all the collectibles. And in the end I was a bit lost in the puzzle, but that was probably issue on my side. Since I wanted to enjoy the level, even if it was hard for me, I splitted the playthrough into a few days - and somehow missed the level exit after finding the last powerup and started backtracking. I thought it would not be a nice experience, but the atmosphere got me again and it completely stopped bothering me. Additionaly I was able to find a few secret locations I completely missed before.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Purple Ink on March 25, 2021, 05:42:55

Finally done my second playthrough. :D I'm pretty sure I found everything.

Spoiler: secret stuff (click to show/hide)

Found all 5 artefacts and 5 GCs. I assume that's all of the GCs because I could only find a 'V' lock and no others. Found the secret ending and I have to say it was beautiful. Really brought it around and shed new light on the whole level. Very, very nicely done. You've definitely got the poetic KS level crown, Talps. ;)

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Mitorun on March 26, 2021, 14:48:34

The first level was memorable and atmospheric. The second one complements and reveals it well. Perhaps I will add both to the list of selected levels of "KS". Now, still in the process of the game, I wanted to write that I found the "void" on the screen "x1005x971" (when you play it again, you can jump to the screen above)

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: SC on March 29, 2021, 00:26:34

Well, I finally completed this level start to finish (and to other finish), so I think it's about time I give my two cents on this level: it's good. It's really, really, good.

Petals II is a nice-looking, yet challenging level that definitely lives up to its predecessor. (Although to be honest, I hadn't even played Petals I until a few weeks ago when the new patch for it dropped. Despite being in the KS community since around 2011, it must have missed my radar somehow.)

I can tell there was quite a bit of time and care put into each of the areas, both graphics-wise and challenge-wise. I feel this level's difficulty toes the line between Hard and Very Hard, and while I was able to complete it all the way through, I won't lie and I'll say that there were quite a few screens that gave me some trouble the first few times around. It's a beast of a level, but if you're an experienced KS player (or platformer fan in general), it is definitely worth playing.

Spoiler: Secrets!!!!! (click to show/hide)

I will admit that I did have to peek in the editor twice to get the secret ending (once to find the artifact in the hive, and twice to find the GC entrance in the garden. To add insult to injury, I now remember that I stumbled upon that in my first playthrough but had to find it in the editor before I even remembered that it was even there. D'oh.), but oh man was it worth it! The ending was short, but very sweet and definitely worth the journey back. Like Purple Ink said, it really adds another dimension to the level's story and makes the experience that much sweeter after the trials you've faced. (Also, good lord, that one set of screens in the castle with the fire and the switch took me quite a while to beat. Gosh.)

All in all, this level proves that Talps has still got it. I will be adding this level to Juniverse as soon as I can!  :^^:

EDIT: Forgot to mention, but I actually quite liked the chase section/"hive", as it were. Quite challenging, but quite fun, imo. Keeps ya on your toes. :P

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Talps on March 29, 2021, 02:08:00

Thanks for your feedback, all. I can see that this level is proving a bit divisive, with some who loved it and others, less so. I took some risks with the design and tried to evoke certain feelings for the player; it sounds like that for some people I really hit the mark, and for others I missed it wildly. but I appreciate all of you playing my level and taking the time to let me know your thoughts!

I wasn't sure if I should rank this as Hard or Very Hard. I probably ought to have gone with the latter; this was originally designed to be hidden content in PoaDF so when I started planning and working on it, I was happy to set the difficulty bar a bit higher than is usual for me.

A couple of lessons I will take forward:

• I often find it frustrating in games when you are struggling to find the correct way forward and end up stumbling into a secret area (or even a glitch) instead. In particular the way the Ruins were based on PoaDF, but explored in a different way, caused this problem for people, and I recognise I got the balance a bit wrong at times.
• In retrospect the final area seems to confuse people, maybe just because it's a bit out of character with the rest of the level. Having made it from a map, I can safely say it is much easier with a map! One of those designer-knowledge-versus-player-knowledge things.
• After Eurydice I did promise no more invisible mazes. I don't think I quite broke that promise. :P I wanted to create an atmosphere of tension in the Hive, to try and create an actual sense of threat and maybe even some fear. It was an experiment, and a risky one. And a bit of a genre-skip from the usual KS fare.

I agree that the atmosphere drifted a long way from that of PoaDF. And this probably does stand better when not considered from the shadow of the original. The arty minimalism was a big part of the original, letting the player project their own imagination into the level. Petals II is more defined and grounded. Playing the original, I get a feeling of things... opening out as you explore each area, like a cone starting narrow at the bottom and getting wider as you come closer to the surface. I don't get the same sensation from this, maybe due in part to the stronger difficulty curve.

Spoiler: Major plot spoiler for the secret ending (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: Seriously, major spoilers. Turn back! (click to show/hide)

I only had the idea to add golden creatures and the secret ending as I was working on the Ruins area. When making a level, I will usually have the frame of the entire story clear in my mind (if not actually written down) before I even touch the editor, so adding such a huge branch to the plot mid-production was a scary move for me.

The content of the secret ending was redeveloped over and over as I worked on the main path, starting off as just a plotless director's-commentary area, then becoming a vague, nebulous thing like the ending of Eurydice, left to the player to make sense of for themselves. I finally challenged myself to answer the question, 'Why would she head back down into the dark after coming within sight of what she was searching for?' with the proviso that I couldn't make the answer miserable, since it was going to take a lot of work for the player to get here and they deserved to feel good from that.

After I made both endings I found that the secret one had become, at least in my opinion, the stronger ending that caps off the level better, that completes the journey better. I think it reflects something of how I've changed over the last ten years - the journey I've taken and the way I've learned to understand my not inconsiderable anxieties. It's harder to turn around and face your fears, than it is to constantly fantasize about escaping.

And 'cus some people have asked, here are some hints about secrets. I'd recommend not looking at these unless you're really stuck (or really can't be bothered to figure it all out).

Spoiler: Clues to secrets (click to show/hide)

There is one golden creature and one artefact in each area.
Once you have all ten secrets, your next step is to head back down to the Garden...

Greyface, given you've found the secret end, you probably realise now why exploration was limited in places.

Pfrangip, fact of debatable interest: I can actually tell you precisely when my design style became much busier; it was after crossing the bridge and going through the small cave in I Chased the Moon. The screens beyond that cave are a lot more kinetic than the screens before it, and that's been my pattern ever since. Also, I can usually get past the dark dragon in the Hive in one or two attempts. If it had killed me more I probably would have removed it; one of us got extremes of luck.

Polana, naah, just sounded like you were making a joke. :)

Mitorun, eugh, there's always one you miss! That'll be fixed if I release another version. Glad you enjoyed.

Congrats to everyone who uncovered all the secrets (even if you did have to do some dirty rotten cheatin' :P). This community is brilliant and wonderful, and I hope I can keep sharing brilliant and wonderful creations with you all. 8)

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Purple Ink on July 16, 2021, 22:22:57

Hey, Talps. I played through the level again and found a bug. I'll spoiler it since it is part of secret things.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

The player can stand on an invisible tile. I checked in the editor and it's a bank 16 object 14 tile.

(https://i.imgur.com/aXPNdl0.png)

Not really a big deal but you might want to fix it so I thought I'd point it out.

Title: Re: Petals II [KS+ Hard/Large/Scenic]
Post by: Talps on July 17, 2021, 11:44:46

Thanks. I have a couple of other bugs fixed if I ever get around to re-uploading.