Nifflas' Support Forum
Released Games => Knytt Underground => Pre-release topics => Topic started by: sergiocornaga on July 27, 2012, 05:44:51
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So, this game has a name now. (http://indiegames.com/2012/07/nifflas_to_create_knytt_underg.html) And new screenshots. And it's coming to Windows, Mac, Linux, PS3 and Vita, with the last two getting "unique content".
Big news!
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Sweet! Nice to see some news starting to leak out inter the wider web :^^:
Really difficult to be patient about such a seemingly fantastic game.
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ooh, exciting. I wonder how the beta testing for the playstations is gonna be done. :)
and it's really fun to see so many of the plants again that I photographed more than a year ago. X)
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Yes, everything is going great. I've got lots of help from my partners resulting in additional content, most of it which'll be available in the desktop versions too. So it have been good for all versions.
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this is really amazing stuff! I'm glad to see a nifflas game on the ps3 :)
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It'll be some mini stories. Think Knytt Stories add on levels not connected to the main storyline. They are pretty nice ones though, but you won't miss out any key elements on the main game and story if you don't play them. Besides, without the additional help and resources I got I wouldn't have been able to make the main game as good anyway so in the end the whole thing has been great for the game.
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I'm just curious: will the console versions have an editor as well? Not that it matters to me, since I don't have either console.
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Congratulations, Nifflas. Really looking forward to this!
Time to update the subforum title, I suppose? :D
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I'm just curious: will the console versions have an editor as well? Not that it matters to me, since I don't have either console.
I'll leave revealing most things about the vita/ps3 versions to my partners. The developer editor I made for myself is not really suitable to be released like this; it is waaaaay complicated. I still have to figure out how I can make it both easy and yet support all advanced features at the same time. It's a big challenge for me. Maybe I'll wait with the editor until the game is already released.
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I'm just curious: will the console versions have an editor as well? Not that it matters to me, since I don't have either console.
I'll leave revealing most things about the vita/ps3 versions to my partners. The developer editor I made for myself is not really suitable to be released like this; it is waaaaay complicated. I still have to figure out how I can make it both easy and yet support all advanced features at the same time. It's a big challenge for me. Maybe I'll wait with the editor until the game is already released.
I strongly recommend, regardless how easy it turns out to be to make the editor in time, to release it after the game has been released. Give at least a month or so of time for the players to finish the game normally, or they might be so eager to try out the editor that they'll just rush through the game or stop playing halfway. Portal2 did release the level editor after and if they hadn't it would probably have ruined the game. I even dare to say that I'd probably would've played maybe chapter one and two and then try out the editor. (there are 8 chapters)
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I'm just curious: will the console versions have an editor as well? Not that it matters to me, since I don't have either console.
I'll leave revealing most things about the vita/ps3 versions to my partners. The developer editor I made for myself is not really suitable to be released like this; it is waaaaay complicated. I still have to figure out how I can make it both easy and yet support all advanced features at the same time. It's a big challenge for me. Maybe I'll wait with the editor until the game is already released.
I strongly recommend, regardless how easy it turns out to be to make the editor in time, to release it after the game has been released. Give at least a month or so of time for the players to finish the game normally, or they might be so eager to try out the editor that they'll just rush through the game or stop playing halfway. Portal2 did release the level editor after and if they hadn't it would probably have ruined the game. I even dare to say that I'd probably would've played maybe chapter one and two and then try out the editor. (there are 8 chapters)
abso-fucking-lutely; I was about to say exactly the same thing...
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Okay, you got me convinced. I better focus on the game only up to the release anyway. I've spent twice as much time on this than on any other game before and I really hope you'll like it as much as I do.
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After I read about Knytt Underground this morning (yup, a bit late) I came to work with a smile C) . Looking forward for the PC version! (and the PS3 version too).
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I'm just curious: will the console versions have an editor as well? Not that it matters to me, since I don't have either console.
I'll leave revealing most things about the vita/ps3 versions to my partners. The developer editor I made for myself is not really suitable to be released like this; it is waaaaay complicated. I still have to figure out how I can make it both easy and yet support all advanced features at the same time. It's a big challenge for me. Maybe I'll wait with the editor until the game is already released.
I strongly recommend, regardless how easy it turns out to be to make the editor in time, to release it after the game has been released. Give at least a month or so of time for the players to finish the game normally, or they might be so eager to try out the editor that they'll just rush through the game or stop playing halfway. Portal2 did release the level editor after and if they hadn't it would probably have ruined the game. I even dare to say that I'd probably would've played maybe chapter one and two and then try out the editor. (there are 8 chapters)
abso-fucking-lutely; I was about to say exactly the same thing...
I have the opposite opinion. When I first played Knytt Stories, I started playing around with the level editor right away, but of course that didn't cause me to stop playing the game itself. If anything it just made the whole experience of the game feel more interactive and personal. While playing the game and being amazed by what Nifflas had made, I could simultaneously be inspired about what kind of level I wanted to make. Thinking about designing levels while playing a really well made level can only lead to people making better levels themselves.
As far as this game goes, I personally was hoping that the level editor would be released during the beta so that I could get a head start on making my level (which I've been planning in my head pretty much since this game was announced) before the actual release of the game. It would be cool if soon after the release there were already people putting out good levels because they had some time to work on them before the release.
Of course, if Nifflas has more important things to work on up until the release, that's understandable. But I disagree that he should deliberately avoid releasing the editor in advance for any other reason.
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I have the opposite opinion. When I first played Knytt Stories, I started playing around with the level editor right away, but of course that didn't cause me to stop playing the game itself. If anything it just made the whole experience of the game feel more interactive and personal. While playing the game and being amazed by what Nifflas had made, I could simultaneously be inspired about what kind of level I wanted to make. Thinking about designing levels while playing a really well made level can only lead to people making better levels themselves.
As far as this game goes, I personally was hoping that the level editor would be released during the beta so that I could get a head start on making my level (which I've been planning in my head pretty much since this game was announced) before the actual release of the game. It would be cool if soon after the release there were already people putting out good levels because they had some time to work on them before the release.
Of course, if Nifflas has more important things to work on up until the release, that's understandable. But I disagree that he should deliberately avoid releasing the editor in advance for any other reason.
With Knytt Stories, yeah I can see how that might help as this is a different kind of game. But as I've seen a bit of Knytt Underground myself I can tell you this is a different story. The biggest difference between Knytt Stories and Knytt Underground is, that KS has been made about stories, so you have little games that are on their own. It doesn't matter if you play a story then make your own level, then play another story. With KU, the main game is huge. You don't play a little bit, then go edit a level and go play some more, because if you do, you'll loose touch with the game and that'll backfire on you.
I've actually seen the same happen with Portal2. New members who now buy the game have instant access to the level editor and guess what, they're not interested in the portal 2 main game at all. They went on making levels straight away, and one person even admitted openly that he was playing the game because we told him after he was asking silly questions and now he came back with: omg, I was missing out!
So for a player who's really interested in making levels, I can understand that you want the editor as soon as possible, but looking from Nifflas' perspective, he'll make it so that people will miss the great storyline.
I suppose this is similar to games where you have single player and multiplayer, where most gamers will skip single player alltogether and go for multiplayer straight away, and much much later play single player because others say its a great story. The difference here is, that for a level to be good, its a good idea if you have played single player so you can be inspired by the single player and make better levels.
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having the level editor from the time the game is released for this type of game would be bad I think. A lot of people would play a little bit, and then just start making levels. I'd like to see a level editor, but not for some time after the game is out. that way you could actually complete the game and then be able to make levels.
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I just don't see what would stop people from working on their level and playing the game itself. If the game is huge, then I'm not going to play it all in one sitting anyway. I'll play an hour here, an hour there, until I've finished it. So what would be so bad if I played an hour of the game, played around with the level editor a bit, played another hour of the game, and so on? I can play a game, go about my life and do lots of other things, and then come back and play more of the game--so why can't learning the game's level editor be one of those many things that I do when I'm not playing the game?
In my opinion, the only way someone would stop playing a game before finishing it is if they're just not enjoying the game itself that much. If it's a great game, they're going to want to keep playing it. Just having something else they also want to do sometimes isn't going to stop them from finishing a game they enjoy.
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having the level editor from the time the game is released for this type of game would be bad I think. A lot of people would play a little bit, and then just start making levels. I'd like to see a level editor, but not for some time after the game is out. that way you could actually complete the game and then be able to make levels.
Releasing the editor with the game before has never been a problem really for any games I can think of. If anything it will keep players coming back instead of maybe putting the game aside when they're finished and never become aware of an editor release.
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having the level editor from the time the game is released for this type of game would be bad I think. A lot of people would play a little bit, and then just start making levels. I'd like to see a level editor, but not for some time after the game is out. that way you could actually complete the game and then be able to make levels.
Maybe one approach can be to provide at launch not the editor, but the instructions/documents of the editor (python libraries, features of the game engine, and so on). This way, the people that want to create levels (me included) can understand how the foundations of knytt underground work. Like warm-up exercises before the real fight.
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I think something to remember is that the free version will have the level editor but not the main adventure, meaning that people who have the adventure will have paid for it. It seems unlikely that someone would pay extra for the adventure and then just ignore it and use the editor :P
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I think something to remember is that the free version will have the level editor but not the main adventure, meaning that people who have the adventure will have paid for it. It seems unlikely that someone would pay extra for the adventure and then just ignore it and use the editor :P
True, but its more likely that they'll not buy the adventure at all in such case.
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I really want Knytt Underground to be a big success. I feel like Nifflas doesn't get nearly enough attention as he deserves through his amazing work, specially with his super low prices and free games/platforms like Knytt and Knytt Stories. Maybe we could all help change that with Knytt Underground.
I don't really know what's Nifflas's situation right now, but if we shared a bit of story about his games on places like Reddit, maybe we could help. Specially since there is going to be a DRM-free version, that helps a lot.
By the way, I've seen indie devs selling their game on their own webpage with a DRM-free version + Steam key, for the same price as the Steam game (minus the Steam launch discounts) I bet that would be a really good way to bring in some people.
Oh, and I'm assuming this will be on Steam, since other Nifflas games are there.
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Reading the topic I fail to understand entirely why a level editor at launch will be a big deal either way...
On the one hand, people sometimes will be more inclined to buy a game if it has an editor, depending on how creative they are and the general capabilities of the editing. On the other hand, if you release it later on, people will still be equally inclined to play or not play the actual game, it just depends on what they intend to do originally. I don't see anyone who actually wanted to play the game....not playing the game...editor or not. Making people wait for the editor is silly to me personally because other than limiting people to the main game until you release it, the end result is going to end up the same, unless of course you actually need more development time on it, in which I can see a valid reason for waiting.
Point is, if people are going to skip to the editor right away, they will do so once you release it if they see fit to do that originally anyway. It might even make people wait to buy it if you say you 'intend' to release an editor at a 'later date'. People are funny like that, but my point is that if they wanted to ruin the game by messing about in the editor, they will regardless of when you release it. So to that extent, why wait?
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Okay, you got me convinced. I better focus on the game only up to the release anyway. I've spent twice as much time on this than on any other game before and I really hope you'll like it as much as I do.
It depends. Changing the editor may help improve your own productivity, in which case it's a must.
Releasing the editor with the game before has never been a problem really for any games I can think of. If anything it will keep players coming back instead of maybe putting the game aside when they're finished and never become aware of an editor release.
I totally agree. The point about people not paying for the main adventure it the editor is released right away does make a lot of sense though. They will see all free levels made for the game and have less reasons to pay.
Maybe one approach can be to provide at launch not the editor, but the instructions/documents of the editor (python libraries, features of the game engine, and so on). This way, the people that want to create levels (me included) can understand how the foundations of knytt underground work. Like warm-up exercises before the real fight.
That's really weird. Such documents are made last, if at all.
If there were more beta testers, I would suggest releasing the dev version of editor as is in the beta to see what people can do with it and what changes they would suggest.
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If there were more beta testers, I would suggest releasing the dev version of editor as is in the beta to see what people can do with it and what changes they would suggest.
Why would there need to be "more" beta testers for that?
I personally would love to have any version of the editor released during the beta. Even if it's only functional enough that I can start importing my photos in to see how they look in an actual level, so that I can start getting all my photos ready for when it's time to make the level itself when the full editor is released.
There was an incomplete editor released a long time ago in a previous stage of "beta testing" (for coming up with puzzle suggestions) but it didn't have the ability to put photos in the levels. Even just a version of that editor with the added option of putting photos in, so I can test how they look in the game, would make me very happy.
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If there were more beta testers, I would suggest releasing the dev version of editor as is in the beta to see what people can do with it and what changes they would suggest.
Why would there need to be "more" beta testers for that?
There are only a few people from the whole forum who made levels for my and ego's KS mods, so I thought the beta editor would pass mostly unused. It's good if I'm wrong. In any case, it's better to release it in beta than not.
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I remember reading here that Knytt underground would use Python for the quest scripting. Maybe I'm having a stroke and this is a lie, but in case it isn't, I'm curious about this. What will this allow us to do? Is it limited to scripting quests or does it give us the liberty to really change the game? Or did I misunderstand how Python would be implemented here?
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The Python aspect of the game mainly has hooks related to the quest/dialog system, map, savedata, inventory and music playback. It allows you to create complicated quest structures and dynamic music that reacts to what happens in the game. Unfortunately, there are no realtime functions or hooks so you can not manipulate the core mechanics of the game itself.
There's still not an user friendly editor for the game. If I get time over, I may make an attempt to create a nice editor before the game release.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqfRy9f2XQE
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I read that this is getting released in Europe for PlayStation Plus on December 21st. Is there a US release date yet?
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There is one, but as Ripstone is much better at marketing a game than I am (I just spend all my time creating content for it because that's my passion), I think it's much better if they decide when/how to reveal it 'cause they know that stuff. What I can say though is you won't have to wait long :)
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Thank you for the reply! I actually made that post and then afterwards noticed an option to contact you directly, which I did. Sorry for the duplicate question.
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Why is Knytt Underground on steam Greenlight? doesn't it have a publisher?
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Having a publisher doesn't bypass greenlight other than if it's a bigger game. I think Steam is trying to push Greenlight as much as possible.
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The Greenlight requirement is very recent, though; I think they changed their policy for publishers just a month ago or so.
Nice presentation, by the way. I see Nifflas chose not to mention the editor yet; surely it's not needed for the game to pass Greenlight.
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Here's a link to the Greenlight entry: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=113281105&searchtext=knytt+underground
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dat beard. :shocked: i didn't know it was possible for me to love nifflas any more than i already did.
speaking of the PSN version, will it only be available to playstation plus members? i would happily buy it on there so i could play it before the PC release, but i don't have a plus membership, and it would be a bit extreme to get it just for this.
edit: nevermind. saw my question answered in another thread.
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I haven't mentioned the editor because the level format turned out so much more advanced than I planned first. If I can, I'd really like to make a good and understandable editor, but I may need help to be able to pull that off.
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You've mentioned before that it's only certain aspects of the levels that are going to be difficult to make a user-friendly editor for, and that knowing Python scripts would be necessary for doing the more advanced things. Is it still possible to make a user-friendly editor in the meantime even if it's only limited in what it can do (but people who know Python can still do more)? Or is the problem that the levels have become so advanced that it will be difficult to make a user-friendly editor at all, even for the basic aspects of level editing?
I, for one, would be extremely happy to have an editor even if I could only make an environmental level with it. If later a more advanced editor could allow me to add quests to that level I had already built, that would be great too. :)
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The solution is definitely to make an easy but slightly limited editor. The advanced features can still be in there, but slightly hidden away and would rely on a lot of work in notepad.
However, I've worked so hard on Knytt Underground over the last two and a half years that I'm not sure I can manage to create an editor right now (I need a bit of rest first). If I could get help, it'd make it a lot easier. If Knytt Underground generates a nice profit, I could hire someone to help me out for a little while.
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Came to the forum tonight. Saw the message about this game being on Greenlight. Upvoted and faved it ASAP. I'm really happy to see how close this is to release. Looking forward to it so much! C)
...While we're here, there was a small detail I've always been curious about. Whenever you talk about Mi's Knytt and Ball forms, you almost always refer to them as "characters". Is there a special meaning behind using that phrase? :huh: Like, are the two forms more than just "forms" in the end? I think it'd be kind of cute if that's the case! :^^: But if not, that's cool too. I just wanted to know was all.
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I'm willing to help with the editor. Should it be done from scratch or continued in MMF or something?
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...While we're here, there was a small detail I've always been curious about. Whenever you talk about Mi's Knytt and Ball forms, you almost always refer to them as "characters". Is there a special meaning behind using that phrase? Like, are the two forms more than just "forms" in the end? I think it'd be kind of cute if that's the case! But if not, that's cool too. I just wanted to know was all.
The game's storyline will explain it very well. It would really spoil this if it were made public.
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The advanced features can still be in there, but slightly hidden away and would rely on a lot of work in notepad.
*Notepad++ :^^:
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I'm overcome with the sudden urge to create tens of steam profiles for the sole purpose of maximising greenlight votes...
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I'm overcome with the sudden urge to create tens of steam profiles for the sole purpose of maximising greenlight votes...
You shouldn't do that. Its against the terms of service of steam, and if they find out, they will ban all your accounts, including the one that has all your games. It would be a waste.
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Also,it seems you need to spend money (or get a gift code) at least once on your steam account to be able to greenlight games.
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Will there be a non-Steam version? I'd rather not wait several months for a chance of it being released on PC.
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...While we're here, there was a small detail I've always been curious about. Whenever you talk about Mi's Knytt and Ball forms, you almost always refer to them as "characters". Is there a special meaning behind using that phrase? Like, are the two forms more than just "forms" in the end? I think it'd be kind of cute if that's the case! But if not, that's cool too. I just wanted to know was all.
The game's storyline will explain it very well. It would really spoil this if it were made public.
Alright, then I won't ask about it any further. Thanks very much for answering! And again, I'm really looking forward to playing this game so much! Let's get Knytt Underground greenlit as fast as we can! C)p
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http://us.playstation.com/games-and-media/games/knytt-underground-ps3.html
(http://us.playstation.com/games-and-media/games/knytt-underground-ps3.html)
Apparently Knytt Underground is out, Ripstone sure did a great job of marketing it.
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Too bad the game was released while still containing a few serious bugs. Lets hope they update it pretty quickly.
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I'm overcome with the sudden urge to create tens of steam profiles for the sole purpose of maximising greenlight votes...
You shouldn't do that. Its against the terms of service of steam, and if they find out, they will ban all your accounts, including the one that has all your games. It would be a waste.
I'm quaking in my boots.
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You shouldn't do that. Its against the terms of service of steam, and if they find out, they will ban all your accounts, including the one that has all your games. It would be a waste.
I'm quaking in my boots.
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that you are going to do it, but I mention this because your post may have given others wrong ideas, and they should know what the consequences are from doing this.
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I'm quaking in my boots.
Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that you are going to do it, but I mention this because your post may have given others wrong ideas, and they should know what the consequences are from doing this.
Well if they don't already, I'm sure they will once they try it out.