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Temporary => Knytt Stories Level Releases => Topic started by: Talps on January 15, 2012, 02:36:57

Title: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on January 15, 2012, 02:36:57
Ladies and gentlemen! Roll up, roll up, for the greatest show in this thread!

Do Not Pick Up The Key is an all-new level, containing some totally semi-new tilesets, two three music tracks that may have been written especially for this level except that they weren't, and a whole host of challenges between you and the goal of the level; not picking up the key!

That's right, you're on an epic quest to not do something! 'But surely the easiest way not to do something is to not undertake the quest', I hear you cry, and of course you're right! But where's the fun in that? Where's the challenge? Where's the adventure?

So gather your wits and prepare your senses! Turn down the lights and turn up your speakers and prepare for the greatest adventure you'll have in the entire duration of the next half an hour: Do Not Pick Up The Key!

EDIT: version 2 now available

Download Do Not Pick Up The Key v2 (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/Talps%20-%20Do%20not%20Pick%20up%20the%20Key%20V2.knytt.bin)

(Note: this level is still fully-compatible with basic KS but contains some animated COs only visible if you play with Egomassive's KS+ mod (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=4175.0).)
Spoiler: Version 2 Changelog (click to show/hide)

And while that downloads, why not look at the pretty screenshots and read what some of the world's top reviewers are saying about 'Do Not Pick Up The Key'...


"Do Not Pick Up The Key is a jewel amidst mildly luminous pebbles, with heart-touching characters, beautiful graphics and challenges that will stretch your wits and reflexes like a hearty jog stretches your legs, all forming a gripping level that is both a mirror and a shadow of today's society, raising thought-provoking questions about the nature of the modern human condition."
Robert Zeiger, game critic.

"I've had more fun watching men's tennis."
Gerald Hutch, miserable goit.

"What's this got to do with knitting then, lovie?"
Sue (from catering).

Spoiler: Download link for original version (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Widget on January 15, 2012, 03:27:15
(no)
That was quite thoroughly entertaining, a really solid level and very funny at the end. I didn't find any bugs or typos, though I didn't try to break the level much; I was too busy trying to get through the screens intact  :P I must admit I cheated to see what would happen if I did get the key, rather than play through it again, but I'll definitely do it properly when I'm less tired (yeah, absurd completionist attitude but it's worth replaying anyway  :^^:).
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: ortoslon on January 15, 2012, 04:54:14
bug: going down from x1010y992 (I can get past the spiky thing using umbrella) leads to a void, followed by a non-void screen
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Healy on January 15, 2012, 07:04:05
(no)
Well, that was fun. Like Widget, I cheated to see what would happen if I took the other path. Looks like I made the right choice!

Some thoughts on the ending:
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
There were a few frustrating bits, but overall I really liked it.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Raicuparta on January 15, 2012, 10:05:55
Yes :(
Absolutely loved it. Had a lot of fun playing, it was a bit challenging for me, but that only made it better.
Also, I stared at the key for like 2 minutes before deciding what to do, that's usually a sign that a game is really good for me.
Even though this isn't and environmental level, it is beautiful, ever screen felt alive and dangerous. It really feels like you put a lot of work at each individual screen.
And yay, I'm in the credits for an awesome level :D
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on January 15, 2012, 13:17:37
@Ort: Dang and blast! I tried that ten times without luck; problem was I kept forgetting I had the umbrella when I was testing.

Thanks for the positive feedback everyone! I'm glad you all liked it! I did put design effort into each screen though I confess I was extremely lazy with the end of the temple. But I'm very glad you all enjoyed it!
The very first inspiration for this was 'You have to Burn the Rope' but it spread out a lot from that; originally I was thinking it'd be just a short one-area level, but then suddenly that laboratory decided that, instead of being longer, it wanted to open out onto a mountainside, and then I decided to take it as far as I was comfortable to take it.

Quote from: Widget on January 15, 2012, 10:27:15
yeah, absurd completionist attitude but it's worth replaying anyway.
Yay! I have replay value!
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: ortoslon on January 17, 2012, 11:50:52
(no, yes, without cheating)

the first custom music track is too loud, the second one doesn't fit the area at all
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Zelos on January 17, 2012, 12:46:18
No I didn't pick up the key :P I think your level was really good :D
I have allways wanted to know what someone else think about my levels :D You see on my account name; Zelos.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: RichardJ on January 17, 2012, 13:26:07
(no)
I had fun playing this level. Some of the challenges took quite a few tries but the save points were never so far apart as to make it a chore. I happily played through again today and chose the other ending -
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Also, it was fun hearing chiptunes, although like ortoslon I felt they didn't fit the areas they were used in.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: egomassive on January 17, 2012, 16:55:28
(No then Yes)
The fishing pole was perfect! I know it's a small, insubstantial part, but I really liked it! I stopped and watched it for a couple minutes even though it really wasn't doing anything. The humor was quite good too.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Raicuparta on January 17, 2012, 17:29:31
Quote from: egomassive on January 17, 2012, 16:55:28
The fishing pole was perfect! I know it's a small, insubstantial part, but I really liked it! I stopped and watched it for a couple minutes even though it really wasn't doing anything.
I'm glad that there are people that like that stuff, even though I am yet to make a level with a lot of detail, I know that these little things are a pain to get perfect. A lot of the time I spent with the level I'm currently making was wasted with tiny things most people won't notice.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on January 18, 2012, 22:14:09
Quote from: ortoslon on January 17, 2012, 11:50:52
(no, yes, without cheating)

the first custom music track is too loud, the second one doesn't fit the area at all
Having taken a school course about presenting an argument, I dislike the way you present opinion as fact.


Glad you liked it, Ego and Rai :P It was only a little thing TBH and didn't work out as well as I'd hoped, but it's good. I'm rather glad that that knytt doesn't move in a way that breaks it, for which I can only thank Nifflas.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: ortoslon on January 18, 2012, 22:17:42
being a brevity nazi, I omit "I think/feel/believe that" when I state an opinion that can't be mistaken for a fact
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: LordMarzog on January 19, 2012, 08:09:28
Yes <_< >_> I jumped over it, went to the next screen, stopped 5 pixels short of the trip wire, then ran back and grabbed it.

(It was worth it. I regret nothing!!!!!)

Very nice level here! Pretty hard to me. I'd say hard-very hard, but then again, I just get frustrated easily by having to replay hard screens because of less save points. Buuuuut less save points is part of hard so yeah.

Anyways, lots of fun! The music didn't really bother me much, I thought it was kinda fitting.

Loved the little details scattered around. Like the fishing pole, the lights on the springs, the little blinking lights on the fan switch, etc.
The pressure plates were really cool too.

Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Raicuparta on January 19, 2012, 09:32:22
Quote from: LordMarzog on January 19, 2012, 08:09:28
Yes <_< >_> I jumped over it, went to the next screen, stopped 5 pixels short of the trip wire, then ran back and grabbed it.
Holy shoot that's exactly what I did :O
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: LordMarzog on January 20, 2012, 04:45:51
Quote from: Raicuparta on January 19, 2012, 09:32:22
Quote from: LordMarzog on January 19, 2012, 08:09:28
Yes <_< >_> I jumped over it, went to the next screen, stopped 5 pixels short of the trip wire, then ran back and grabbed it.
Holy shoot that's exactly what I did :O

Now that is freaky  O_o

Hmmmm perhaps Talps was right. Too much Portal  X)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: GrayFace on January 21, 2012, 07:42:23
no
This was a lot of fun!
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
It's funny that there are two obedience themed levels out at the same time.

Quote from: Zelos on January 17, 2012, 12:46:18
I have allways wanted to know what someone else think about my levels :D You see on my account name; Zelos.
You should create topics for them! I think most people don't dig through the level archive, there's a lot of unfinished levels there.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: LordMarzog on January 21, 2012, 21:05:59
Quote from: Raicuparta on January 17, 2012, 17:29:31
Quote from: egomassive on January 17, 2012, 16:55:28
The fishing pole was perfect! I know it's a small, insubstantial part, but I really liked it! I stopped and watched it for a couple minutes even though it really wasn't doing anything.
I'm glad that there are people that like that stuff, even though I am yet to make a level with a lot of detail, I know that these little things are a pain to get perfect. A lot of the time I spent with the level I'm currently making was wasted with tiny things most people won't notice.

Interesting you should put it that way. I recall listening to the developer's commentary for Half Life 2 episode 2 and how they mentioned that Alyx's belt now moves like a real belt should. They pointed out that since it now looks so real, it (ironically) would probably go unseen.
So, if you think about it, if we don't notice the tiny details, that means you did a very good job of adding them.  :)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: ortoslon on January 29, 2012, 15:36:14
playthrough picking up the key (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSN5YtcyvKU)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on January 30, 2012, 12:14:09
I wish I remembered by Youtube password so I could reply to that poster...

Thanks for featuring my level again, Ort :D
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Hiino on January 30, 2012, 16:48:15
(no then yes)
So this level was pretty good, with its simple level design for maximum understanding of what I had to do, and the clever use of the enemies.
I wouldn't have labeled it as "hard" though (more like "normal"), but that's just my opinion.
Oh also I found a failure, that leads to the void. It's around the middle of the game, we can get past a grey spikey bouncer and I guess it wasn't planned.
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Widget on January 31, 2012, 02:01:43
It's definitely not a Normal level. The difficulties are supposed to be well defined categories so that anyone can judge how a level will compare to their ability. You've made the same mistake as many level designers who find Normal difficulty levels very easy to play; namely, thinking of Normal as equating to what you personally find to be an average sort of challenge rather than a level roughly equating to Nifflas' normal levels, as it should mean.

I hope this doesn't sound too much like a rant, just trying to clarify  :)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Deformed Knee on February 10, 2012, 21:50:37
I thought the save points were a tad common for it to be a hard level, however music and environment were very well made. At first I didn't pick up the key, then I replayed the level and picked it up to get to the room of doom - found it annoying that there's no escape, because then the level has no ending.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: sergiocornaga on February 11, 2012, 03:46:37
Quote from: Deformed Knee on February 10, 2012, 21:50:37
I thought the save points were a tad common for it to be a hard level,

Too many save points? There's a complaint I'm surprised to see! Or were you just replying to Widget?
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Al on February 14, 2012, 22:01:45
Yes then no

I liked your level very much it was well designed and had a good sence of humor the endings were awesome too. reading what the npc had to say was interesting and the traps and monsters were perfect challenge not to hard and not too easy either. I've found the save points were in correct quantity and distance. I can't wait to play other of you levels.

 I'll be finishing a level soon called "Don't you feel chased? I hope you'll try it when it comes out and give it a little commentary too since this will be my first public level. :)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on April 04, 2012, 03:06:48
I know it's rather late, but I want to say thanks to Hiino, Deformed Knee and AI for taking the time to reply; it's great to hear your feedback, and I'm glad you all enjoyed the experience.
I like a challenging level myself (as long as it doesn't cross the line to frustrating) but I also want to play to the audience; I don't want to alienate those players who like their challenges less demanding. This level is kind of border-line as hard as I can reasonably make it I think.

This was another level where I looked at the passage of time and weather. When you first emerge from the lab, it's a misty, murky night. As you climb the mountain across the valley, snow begins to fall. A crevice in the mountains just before the ruins show snow settling on the ground, and when you emerge from the ruins it's daylight and very snowy. For me, that sort of movement gives a level a sense of progression and time, and a greater feel of realism (which matters to me even if the concept of the level is essentially rather silly).
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Fubaka on May 20, 2012, 09:43:32
Yes.   :P

I also made a banner for me-self because I felt like a troll.

(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/141/b/2/i_picked_up_the_key_by_blahson256-d50jkbi.jpg)

Also, because of the way I pronounce 'knytt' the ones dressed up like knights made me chuckle a bit.
Great level!  I'm off to go again, and not touch the key this time, regardless of how shiny and blue it is!
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Klämrisk on August 13, 2012, 14:01:18
Yes, this level was fun.  :P
"Have you been playing too much 'Portal'?" - how did you know....
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Marximillian on August 22, 2012, 03:02:21
I didn't get the key then I got it.
I liked this level.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Polana on February 17, 2013, 14:09:42
NO
It took me lots of time to play this.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on February 18, 2013, 21:03:14
But was it a good experience?
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Polana on February 18, 2013, 22:18:41
Yes, now I know what happens if I don't pick up the key.   :a1:
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Sleem on March 22, 2013, 23:48:16
Yes, I have successfully played through this level on my youtube channel. It was an experience of fun and technical difficulties. I've definately made better videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTnqfleHBo4
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on March 23, 2013, 19:37:30
Sleem, you need to turn up your monitor brightness!

(No one has ever read the good ending as entertainingly as you!)

Also, I'm glad I'm not as bad as you thought I am. I'll take it as a compliment, I guess.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Sleem on March 24, 2013, 00:44:43
Yes, I was mistaken in blaming you for a horror you were not responsible for, which caused me to denounce you a monster in a video which is only vaguely related to the one that was linked.

As for my brightness, I am limited to the maximal brightness of my external monitor, which as of now is not very impressive. It is an old monitor, after all. However, in about a week, I will have access to a much more competent (and considerably larger) external monitor, which should allow more flexibility in the brightness feature, assuming I have the patience to play around with it.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Fubaka on March 24, 2013, 03:15:09
Quote from: Sleem on March 24, 2013, 00:44:43
Yes, I was mistaken in blaming you for a horror you were not responsible for, which caused me to denounce you a monster in a video which is only vaguely related to the one that was linked.

As for my brightness, I am limited to the maximal brightness of my external monitor, which as of now is not very impressive. It is an old monitor, after all. However, in about a week, I will have access to a much more competent (and considerably larger) external monitor, which should allow more flexibility in the brightness feature, assuming I have the patience to play around with it.

I do remember you mentioning that I was evil, but not as much as Talps in one of the Cosmic Meltdown videos.

I'm definitely more evil than Talps.   :nuts:
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Sleem on March 24, 2013, 10:12:38
Quote from: Fubaka on March 24, 2013, 03:15:09
I do remember you mentioning that I was evil, but not as much as Talps in one of the Cosmic Meltdown videos.

I'm definitely more evil than Talps.   :nuts:

Fubaka! You're the very embodiment of evil! Obviously you're gonna be eviler than Talps. Probably not to the point of ebilness, but that just means you don't control armies of the undead, which I don't have any evidence for.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on March 24, 2013, 12:44:24
Heh, 'Upper Levels' was toned down from its original form. I'll give you a run for your money.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Sleem on March 24, 2013, 15:26:00
Okay, I'll consider that a request. Oh my God, I'm so screwed.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Numberplay on June 04, 2013, 18:51:23
No

Quote from: ortoslon on January 15, 2012, 04:54:14
bug: going down from x1010y992 (I can get past the spiky thing using umbrella) leads to a void, followed by a non-void screen

It has been a year and I can't believe this wasn't fixed yet. I managed to get that on my first playthrough as well.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short]
Post by: Talps on July 15, 2014, 00:48:32
For the first time, I am updating one of my levels! As well as the potentially apocalyptic bug present in this level, it also contained a number of things I felt could see some improvement. And it's a short level that wasn't going to be as huge a challenge to update as some of my other levels that would benefit from a going over.

Plus I animated the knyghts used in this level for Dragon Myth and I want to show that off - so if you play Do Not Pick Up The Key v2 with Egomassive's KS+ mod (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=4175.0), you get to see them bobbing about.

So here it is! If you've played it before, hopefully it'll give you an excuse to play again. If not, then why not?! Is it because you don't like me?  :sad:

Download Do Not Pick Up The Key v2 (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/Talps%20-%20Do%20not%20Pick%20up%20the%20Key%20V2.knytt.bin)

The Comprehensive List of Changes I Remember Making:
Spoiler: This list contains spoilers (click to show/hide)

If you find any more issues have arisen (particularly compatibility issues due to the half-KS+ weirdness - I was so sick of all the jokes by this point that I didn't check it too thoroughly after finalising that) please let me know so I can smooth them over.

Hope you enjoy!
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: millsmess on July 16, 2014, 03:34:34
I replayed it - it was fun! Thanks for the update.

I had a random question, though:
At x1033y995, for Sign A, it says "RAWR!"
As far as I can tell, you didn't end up using that sign though.
If you don't mind, I'd be interested to hear what you were planning to do there.

Thanks again!

 :)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on July 16, 2014, 16:06:35
Thanks for replying! :)

Since Eurydice I've started a habit of putting a toast saying 'RAWR!' (or failing that, 'rawr!') in my levels. I  haven't done it on every single one, but a fair few. (I'd put the first one in Eurydice before Egomassive's A Knytt in Time came out, so I'm not copying him, though that's not stopped me from being paranoid that people will think I am - his toasts are rather more famous than mine.)

I couldn't remember there being one in this level so I was gonna put one in that screen for the re-release, but right after I did it I discovered I had put one in the first version (though you'd have to hunt around a little to find it, which is why I forgot about it). I deleted the toast I'd put in for version two but evidently forgot to delete the text.

If anyone could make a list of levels were I did put in a toast saying 'rawr' it'd interest me :P.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: egomassive on July 21, 2014, 07:05:28
I'll certainly give this level another go or 2. Your brief history of Rawr Toasts was fascinating. I have to admit I thought they were a nod to my Fact Toasts.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on July 21, 2014, 10:29:28
So is it still paranoia if it turns out you were right?
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Chrysophylax on July 28, 2014, 21:05:18
Yay, Talps is making levels!

No (for my first playthrough of version 2) and yes (for my second).

Could you change "all the people of the opposite gender" to "many people of your preferred gender" in the first screen of the keyless ending, please? It's not perfect, but it's an improvement.

Despite at least five playthroughs and poking around in the level editor, I cannot find the roaring toast nor the way to get to the double jump, which seems to be totally inaccessible.

Could you put in some kind of reward for reaching both switches in the Room of Doom?

I am truly amazed by how much I have improved at this game. I remember having difficulty with some of the challenges when I played version 1; this time I beat the whole starting area without dying (and then died stupidly on x1002y998; evidently I am not making large enough sacrifices to Ortoslon). Maybe I should give Dark Sea II another try.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on July 29, 2014, 12:15:28
Yay!

Yay!

I don't intend to release another version of this for the foreseeable future. Also, you do not get to dictate the gender of your admirers/fans/stalkers.

Spoiler: The Toast (click to show/hide)

I thought about that a lot, because I make a note of doing so every time I decide to recall how it feels to be a loser. Warps would definitely break the timing of the room but if I'd been prepared to make it a KS+ exclusive feature, well... I don't actually know if I could have done it with triggers.
It would definitely be a Very Hard challenge and I was leery of putting such a thing in the level. I think it'd annoy as many people as it would gratify. Also, I don't know what the reward would be - it should not allow escape or stop the room from being ultimately lethal. In the end I decided to leave the reward as it has always been - an oddly hollow sense of satisfaction to know you have achieved great things but ultimately are still incapable of bettering the dreadful situation that you have woven about yourself.

Well done!
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: the Jack on July 29, 2014, 15:11:22
Given the difficulty rating, I most likely won't be playing this level myself...

...But I'm curious why you're so adamant that the language in the ending cutscene has to remain heterosexist. Does that enhance the ending somehow?
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on July 29, 2014, 16:55:12
(You mean 'Heterosexual'.)[/grammar_police]

In context it makes more sense as it is because the comment has no bearing on the sexuality of the reader, only on a theoretical crowd of admirers. You can't choose who likes you, only who you like. Changing it as Chrys suggests wouldn't make sense, and therefore would weaken the joke.

If it really bothers you, feel free to read it as '...there are about a thousand people who...'. Changing it would be surprisingly complicated and I hate-reuploading levels. It took me two and a half years to remove a game-breaking bug from this one.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: the Jack on July 29, 2014, 20:06:35
No, I meant heterosexist. (And I may be a bigger grammar-Nazi than you are.)

'Heterosexual' refers to people who are attracted only to people of a different sex and/or gender than their own, or to behavior involving two people (or animals) of different sex / gender. Words can't really be heterosexual, any more than a brick or an algebra exam could.

'Heterosexist' refers to words, actions, thoughts, rules, etc. which privilege heterosexuality over other sexual orientations, or which deny the existence of orientations other than heterosexuality. Heterosexism is cognate with both sexism (which privileges maleness and/or masculinity over other sexes and genders) and cissexism (which privileges people who are cisgender at the expense of people who are transgender, genderqueer, agender, intersex, etc.) and, like so many -ism words, is not a good thing.

Given that, at most, only 60-80% of humans are entirely heterosexual, the idea of a thousand "admirers" all being both "of the opposite gender" and heterosexual seems unlikely, absent some explanation for why some of them wouldn't be the same gender as the player (or belong to some other gender entirely).

That's exactly the kind of unintentional erasure people belonging to privileged groups often create, not out of any intent to offend, but because, as part of a socially dominant group, they just don't have to be aware of non-dominant groups, and so can easily forget to include them. Most media that fail the Bechdel test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bechdel_test) didn't set out intending to.

This is why, for example, it was so refreshing that Nifflas decided to include brown-skinned characters and characters with disabilities in Knytt Underground, including (but hardly limited to) the player-character Mi, as well as non-heterosexual characters. Inclusion is great, especially for people who are used to not seeing people like them represented in media -- whether the media in question is a videogame, a fiction book, a nonfiction book, a film, an advertisement, etc. And it also helps people who are part of privileged groups learn not to expect everything to be about them all the time.  ;)

[/social-justice rant]
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Chrysophylax on July 29, 2014, 23:27:28
Edited to add: I found the toast! Now that I know where it is, I remember finding it in the last version.


the Jack:

You got a star!

You are not a "grammar-Nazi". Grammar Nazis throw innocent sentences into concentration camps for containing split infinitives and shoot sentences that begin with "and". I, on the other hand, am a Heirophant of the Dread Triune Gods of Yn Glysh. Come, friend, join us in our worship!

(You think I'm joking, but I'm not. I've been publically declaring this for some time.)



Talps:

Quote
In context it makes more sense as it is because the comment has no bearing on the sexuality of the reader, only on a theoretical crowd of admirers. You can't choose who likes you, only who you like.

I don't get to dictate the preferences of my admirers, but telling me about the ones I'm reciprocally interested in gives me more utility. The praise is more effective at making people feel good if it talks about their preferred gender.

Phrasing this sentence well is very difficult. Firstly, sex and gender are not equivalent, and each is a multi-faceted concept; sex, for example, includes (amongst other things) genetics (which is much more complex than XX / XY), hormone balance and physiology, while gender includes internal perceptions and a wide range of learned and non-learned social behaviours. Gender is obviously heavily influenced by sex.

Secondly, sexual preferences add another dimension (this isn't even a very good term, since one can be romantic but asexual, sexual but aromantic and so on). Most sexual people care about the external appearance of others (the primary, secondary and tertiary sexual characteristics they display), but many also care about more than this. Many people are uncomfortable with transgender people, to such an extent that a frightening number of post-op transgender people are murdered by partners who find out that they were assigned the other sex at birth. Some people are specifically attracted to genders: for example, someone might be attracted to sterotypically masculine behaviour, irrespective of the genitalia of the actor.

All in all, it might be best to just drop the line, since there isn't space for a better version. I do recognise that this is a lot of work for a relatively small benefit, though.


There's another problem with the quote above: sexual and romantic preferences are not directly choosable. It is firmly established that important components of preferences are genetically determined: responsiveness to pheremones, for example. We clearly see that some individual animals display sexual and romantic behaviours exclusively homosexually. Moreover, those parts of preferences that aren't essentially fixed are rarely consciously controlled, as most people simply don't notice how their preferences are shaped by their environments (and couldn't easily change their environments if they wanted to). Consider lip plates: they are abhorrent to most of us, but one cannot really say that a Mursi tribesman has much choice about what he is taught to consider desirable.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: egomassive on August 12, 2014, 02:18:29
'No' Just played the enhanced version today with KS+. Randomly moving soldiers were a nice touch.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Fubaka on August 12, 2014, 16:14:18
Quote from: the Jack on July 29, 2014, 20:06:35
[/social-justice rant]

Jack, please.  Not only is there a lot wrong in this paragraph, but it's also completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.  What's worse is that the only reason you posted it in the first place is because of a tiny little sentence in the victory screen that wasn't necessarily 'all-inclusive'.

Listen, okay.  It doesn't necessarily matter what your orientation is.  If you are perceived as attractive, folks of the opposite gender will want your number whether you are actually interested or not.  If that offends you, then you're just gonna have to spend your entire life offended, because that's human nature.

Quote from: Chrysophylax on July 29, 2014, 23:27:28
All in all, it might be best to just drop the line, since there isn't space for a better version. I do recognise that this is a lot of work for a relatively small benefit, though.

I personally think there's no reason why he should drop this line.  As far as I can see, you guys are deliberately picking on what would otherwise be a completely insignificant afterthought in a rock-solid level, in order to try and morally one-up the level designer.  Either way, this isn't how we make friends.

My advice:  Let it go.  Go get some fresh air.  Take a nap.  Remember all the lovely sounds and tilesets in this level.  Remember that lovely, shiiiny, purdy key that errr... some of us didn't pick up.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: the Jack on August 12, 2014, 20:57:29
Hey, Fubaka. Pretend that I'm insulting you right now. Something that you take very personally -- I dunno, saying your mom is fat, or your level sucks, or your pet hates you, or you're a child molester -- whatever. It just has to be something that would matter to you.

Now, anything that's significant to one person, is going to matter not at all to someone else. Even things that most people consider important, having access to clean water for example, there's going to be someone who lives far away from anyone who doesn't have access to clean water and who just doesn't care about anyone outside their own family or community or country or whatever.

But not everybody thinks my hypothetical insult up there is a big deal, or anything to get upset over. And if you say you were insulted, maybe even try to explain why my mother / level / pet / molester comment was so hurtful? There's going to be somebody who doesn't just think it's no big deal, but accuses you of bringing it up just to get attention or some other ridiculous reason. And maybe says something to you like "Let it go.  Go get some fresh air.  Take a nap." -- as if your feelings about your mother / level / pet / molestation history can just be gotten over like a mild case of heartburn.

That said, since you apparently think you don't have a horse in this race, but rather think you're an impartial third party? Please, take a day before you respond to this. (Maybe you spent the two weeks since the subject was dropped here carefully crafting your response, but it at least looks like you just discovered the fortnight-old conversation today.) And please do it elsewhere than in this topic, where I doubt Talps wants it further derailing discussion of his level. You might also consider that Talps does not need you to 'defend' him from me or Chrysophylax, and we were actually all getting along fine before you butted in.

If you do decide you want to continue this conversation with me (and/or Chrysophylax and/or anyone else who cares to join in), and find an appropriate place on the forum to continue? It will be... interesting... to see you try to back up your claim that anything I stated in my previous post on 29 July 2014 at 19:06:35 (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=5156.msg67745#msg67745) was factually incorrect. Serious [citation needed], there.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on August 12, 2014, 23:55:55
Guys, please can you have this conversation somewhere else? No offence but it's very off topic to this thread and I kinda don't want it here.

(Glad you like 'em Ego - more of that to come in 'Dragon Myth'.)

Edit: Didn't actually read what either of you said in any detail at all before posting this, but the point still stands.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: pfrangip on September 07, 2014, 17:28:10
Played v2. Still a great level. Where is "Pick up the Key?" I remember you hinting at?

Also, did you add the impossible-to-get Double-Jump tease for v2, or was that always there?
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on September 07, 2014, 21:29:37
If you're referring to my considering making a sequel for this, I dropped the idea as it was a bad one. If you really think about how  a sequel to this would feel, I think you'll agree.

It was added for V2. I like adding save points and the like in unreachable tunnels as scenery; I feel it makes the areas feel more connected, less like scenery, and therefore makes the whole thing feel more like a real world. Adding an upgrade, however, may have been a step too far. I dunno. Live and learn, I guess.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: pfrangip on September 08, 2014, 01:40:16
Quote from: Talps on September 07, 2014, 21:29:37
If you're referring to my considering making a sequel for this, I dropped the idea as it was a bad one. If you really think about how  a sequel to this would feel, I think you'll agree.

I dunno, I almost think it'd be funny if you had a sequel called "pick up the key" where everything tells the player to pick up the key, but then if they do, they "lose" and the level lambastes the player for being an uncreative, unthinking sheep.

Quote
It was added for V2. I like adding save points and the like in unreachable tunnels as scenery; I feel it makes the areas feel more connected, less like scenery, and therefore makes the whole thing feel more like a real world. Adding an upgrade, however, may have been a step too far. I dunno. Live and learn, I guess.

Whether it went too far or not, though I will say that I _almost_ decided to go through the level again to try and find the "secret area" I missed. I wisely checked the editor first.

Also, I tried to get past the ghosts at x1010y992 for about 10 lives or so on today's initial go-around before realizing it was a futile effort.
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: DrProfessor on March 06, 2015, 07:48:44
YES!
I realize that this game is a little old, but I only just discovered it and I must say that I am way impressed! KS is a pretty good platformer. but I only really fell in love with this game when I discovered this level. (and the one from uncle sporky with the mushroom) Thanks for the fantastic game Talps! it was loads of fun!
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Talps on March 06, 2015, 12:08:09
Thanks :D

Nice to be thought of as on par with the most famous KS level of them all!
(And hey, I don't mind you posting in any of my topics, no matter how old they are!)
Title: Re: Do Not Pick Up The Key [challenge/hard/short - now with bonuses in KS+]
Post by: Comhon on November 01, 2015, 21:42:54
No,
I have NOT picked up the key.

Finally I played this level. Wonderful music. A lot of ideas.
The challenges were pretty unique and not so easy to beat.
In the ending you gave me a very good feeling. Thanks!

Going to play it again, but I don't know if I resist picking it...