Nifflas' Support Forum

Released Games => Knytt Underground => Pre-release topics => Topic started by: Nifflas on April 12, 2011, 18:05:11

Title: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 12, 2011, 18:05:11
Yes, you heard right!


The screenshot is not real, nor reflects a real scenario in the game, it's just a mockup I created in a few minutes. It'll look different in the real game, and you will chose a fairy and only see that dialogue, not both at the same time.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: SiamJai on April 12, 2011, 18:34:37
Looks like it will be a deep game. :)
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)


Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: jetio4 on April 12, 2011, 18:47:27
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
If you could tell a little about villages in it, technology, just what exists and doesn't compared to Earth, I could come up with more.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 12, 2011, 19:17:36
I really like the freeing birds one :D
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on April 13, 2011, 16:26:38
How about these?

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: back seat astronaut on April 14, 2011, 02:50:28
How about something like...

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Salmoneous on April 14, 2011, 10:35:16
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 14, 2011, 16:54:19
Nice ideas :D I might definitely use some of them!
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: jetio4 on April 20, 2011, 18:46:16
A person (probably female) who is obsessed with turtles. You have to help them collect a rare black turtle! ;P
Optimist: Helps a person, the person will like you a lot, generally good to them.
Pessimist: helps them into their obsession more, rely on other people, that kind of thing.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 24, 2011, 14:06:10
I'm facing a new, quite unexpected problem. When I'm writing the dialogue I find that Celia (or Cilia, haven't decided which variant yet) always become very likeable when she go all pessimist, cynic, or confrontional about all kind of random stuff. This is of course not the problem; what I find hard is to make the other fairy (the optimist) likeable and just not generic. It's usually quite boring when she agrees with people, and even when she does go confrontional because she thinks someone is wrong, it's hard to come up with really clever or funny responses. I'm going to have to figure out what personality quirks she may have that makes her more interesting.

This is all probably a result of that one of my best friends also happen to be the most ironic and cynical person I've met (I'm not where he is on the good-evil axis, but I know for sure he aligns as chaotic) and he's awesome! I need someone oppositely aligned I can take inspiration from too.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: mato on April 24, 2011, 23:44:18
Maybe she could have made a personal bet of some kind. Eg a promise to a dieing family member that she must stay strong and never give up. That could make her come across as a driven brave young woman and not just plain naive. The oath could also be a place she always wanted to visit as a child, or a famous woman explorer she admired and wanted to be like, or maybe an oath to solve the mystery of the loch ness monster, etc.

So instead of pesimistic vs optimistic it could instead be resigned(it's no use...I can't do it...) vs determined(I must keep on it!). A strong girl that doesn't cave when there's trouble (even though she might momentarily hesitate) is rather more likeable and admirable. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 25, 2011, 00:45:01
Hmm, that won't work. Both have to very likeable for this to work, and this game is specifically about the relationship and choice between cynism vs. optimism, though it never takes a standpoint. The game is way too much built around this to change. When the choice is between "I must keep on it!" and "it's no use, I can't do it!" I see a better and worse attitude. I really need to prevent that for the concept to work at all.

Generally, how it works is that the fairies represent the main character and her opinions. However, they will focus on different things. Whenever the main character is in doubt about something, the fairies will polarize between the two sides of the main character's doubt.

An approach I'm trying to do right now is to make the optimist a bit too optimistic and enthusiastic, it seems to work.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: back seat astronaut on April 25, 2011, 01:48:14
Nifflas, it sounds like you're writing the dialogue for the pessimist as funny and witty because you imagine your friend saying it, but you can't imagine anyone being optimistic in a witty way?  I wonder what would happen if you tried to imagine that you really disagree with the optimist view and find it cynical, and then try to imagine your cynical friend saying it the way they would usually say something cynically.  Does that make any sense?

I wonder if you would be willing to post an example of a dialogue you've already written where you find the cynical view more witty, and see if people could help give suggestions of how to say the optimistic side in a witty way as well.

(Also, what is this "good-evil" axis you speak of, with "alignments" such as "chaotic"?  I would like to hear more about that.)
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: minmay on April 25, 2011, 02:20:51
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: dave.germain on April 25, 2011, 04:45:51
Maybe you could give the good fairy some additional personality trait so she's not just good all the time. Like maybe she's a super neat freak and is always commenting on the cleanliness of people's houses, etc. Like a kind but obsessive grandmother.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 25, 2011, 11:16:34
I never said she was good actually. She's just an optimist. Good vs. Evil is something I try to avoid.

(Also, what is this "good-evil" axis you speak of, with "alignments" such as "chaotic"?  I would like to hear more about that.)
Haha, don't you know your Dungeons and Dragons?

Actually, I've never played D&D, but I've seen the same alignment system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) in several computer game RPG's. I enjoy applying it to real people, just like I occasionally will talk about stats, items, spells, and status effects to describe irl things.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: jimj316 on April 25, 2011, 13:45:43
I have a friend who is very optimistic, cheerful and friendly, but also quite childish and impulsive, and sometimes downright crazy (she once spray-painted her sister purple because she stole her chocolate). She is very likeable for it, perhaps you could make the optimistic fairy like that?

Maybe she could occasionally get distracted from the problem at hand, and generally not take things too seriously. For example, the optimistic fairy might be halfway through her answer to a problem when she realises you are standing in front of a cake shop, and instantly goes off on a tangent "I think we should let the p-SHINY! WANT! GET NAO!!!!11!1!!111!!!!eleven!!!". Having random outbursts like this every so often, on some of the more minor problems, could build character. She should probably be restrained on the larger, more important problems though.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 25, 2011, 15:34:16
Yeah, that's a very good idea! She'll be clever and intelligent, but also having a childish impulsive crazy side will probably add a lot! I'll definitely try to expand on that side of her.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on April 25, 2011, 15:38:01
Do you think you could give us an example snippet of some of the responses you have for the fairies? That would make it easier to judge what might be best to suggest.

As for what I can suggest now, I seem to recall you saying that the fairies were like facets of the main character. If that's the case, it might make sense for them to have some similarities. If you can figure out what it is about the pessimist that makes her so appealing, maybe you can mirror it onto the optimist.

And just a note: Our experiences color our perception of things. It may be that the optimist is perfectly alright as is, but you're seeing the pessimist as much better because you're imagining her saying things the way your friend does and are seeing hidden layers of meaning because of that.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on April 25, 2011, 15:40:53
I might post something soon, but the current dialog contains heavy spoilers. I think I have a pretty good idea of how I can make the optimist more likeable already!
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: back seat astronaut on April 26, 2011, 00:30:06
(Also, what is this "good-evil" axis you speak of, with "alignments" such as "chaotic"?  I would like to hear more about that.)
Haha, don't you know your Dungeons and Dragons?

Actually, I've never played D&D, but I've seen the same alignment system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29) in several computer game RPG's. I enjoy applying it to real people, just like I occasionally will talk about stats, items, spells, and status effects to describe irl things.
:oops: Now I feel stupid.  Not only have I not played D&D but I've never been able to get into that style of CRPG.  Those terms sounded like they might be something more esoteric, from the Middle Ages or something.  I should have known it was just a D&D thing.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Miss Paula on April 27, 2011, 00:05:48
speaking of optimists (http://avid.deviantart.com/art/Optimist-Prime-178004809)... :P2

oh, I had an idea last night, and anybody knows the craziest ideas come when you're trying to fall asleep. right? :P
anyways, I'm not completely certain about how to execute it, but what about some "political" discussion/two opposing standpoints? like perhaps something like
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

fairly random, I admit. :)
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: dave.germain on August 09, 2011, 16:27:04
Regarding the game editor, the current Kyntt Stories editor only accepts ASCII characters in the text boxes. If I save UTF-8 characters (ie Chinese) they come through as little squares. It would be cool to have a multi-lingual version if it isn't too much work. I teach in Taiwan and my students like Knytt but can't make Chinese stories.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on August 09, 2011, 17:14:05
Sorry, MMF2 doesn't support Unicode and hardware acceleration at the same time, so I can not add it.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Zelakon on August 09, 2011, 20:23:15
fairly random, I admit. :)
don't you mean, fairy random? *snort*

English must be your second language, Nifflas?  I think this is hard enough already without me even trying to imagine tackling it in Swedish.  More specifically, I can understand your predicament with the optimist - I'm highly cynical myself and thus find it far easier to conjure up possible dialogue for the pessimist than for the other one.  However I'm glad you have a solution to avoid making the optimistic fairy sappy, clichéd and predictable - so tbh I have nothing to offer!  As back seat astronaut pointed out, the only way some of us can help is by giving us potential examples to experiment with - but you mustn't spoil the game...

Oh btw, if you manage to nail this dialogue (in such a way that I think you very well might) and formulate a complex, unbiased and illuminatory game... The critical indie community should (in theory) proclaim it your best game to date and bung it right up there with Braid & Limbo!!1
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on August 10, 2011, 03:04:33
Haha, I don't know if it can get that popular. I think the dialogue may be very good... That is, if I get enough help from other people who'll look at it and give input or change things.

I'd really like to work with a writer or something.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: back seat astronaut on August 10, 2011, 04:35:46
Though I'm not a published or "professional" writer, I have been privately pursuing writing for a long time, and have always scored very highly on writing tests and been told that I write well.  I would be happy to give input and feedback on the writing of the game.  Maybe that could be part of beta testing.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on August 10, 2011, 05:04:40
Yeah, I'll try to make the beta testing open and last for quite a while.
Title: Re: Stereotype and NPC Contribution!
Post by: Zelakon on August 10, 2011, 19:35:28
I used to write commissioned art critiques for a friend and have been told I possess certain journalistic qualities (i.e. have the uncanny ability to bullshit my way through life using the unparalleled power of the English language), so i'd be happy to help out with some of the dialogue as well.

I think the only possible problem you might have is a classic case of 'too many cooks spoil the broth' - when script is altered by different people, the original meaning - particularly if it's subtle - may get lost (sort of like Chinese whispers) considering the delicacy of language.  Best to get one professional writer to do it all for you!  Not that I'm on personal speaking terms with any, sorry...