Nifflas' Support Forum

Released Games => NightSky => Topic started by: PONTO on January 06, 2011, 18:26:53

Title: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 06, 2011, 18:26:53
When I played the game, I went through Normal mode first and only then did I play the Alternative version. I found the latter much more stimulating and it is to me the "real" game. I think I've actually missed out for experiencing the tricky puzzles after I had seen all the areas, instead of getting it all at once, so I really do recommend all of you looking for a challenge to play the alternative mode straight away, instead of only on the second playthrough.
I would only recommend the normal mode to those seeking a Knytt-like contemplative experience with almost no challenge.

Of course this is just my opinion, though. Whoever wrote this review (http://www.diygamer.com/2011/01/pinball-wizard-nightsky-review/), for instance, thought the exact opposite.

Anyway, have fun. :)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: LPChip on January 06, 2011, 20:50:14
I actually did my first playthough on alternative before doing normal. I really recommend to do normal before alternative because once you've done alternative, normal will be too easy and that takes out the fun. So I disagree with Ponto here.

I actually had a few occasions where I just were stuck on the alternative mode. Would I have played the normal mode first, I would've known what to do. But the main reason is that normal is very easy and in order to enjoy Normal, it should be played first. Alternative is nearly the same but made harder and that will still be enjoyable to play.

If I replay the game for another time, it will be on alternative. I wouldn't replay it on normal, and for that reason, once you have finished Alternative, you're going to replay what you did but then easier. Doesn't sound right, does it?
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Looki on January 06, 2011, 23:55:14
I'll have to disagree as well - I really don't see why you would go with the more challenging alternative mode first. I think that everybody who buys the game should play both modes - I love the alternative mode, but you should keep the "original" order. If you play the alternative mode first you won't have as much fun with the normal mode. It serves as training for the alternative mode as you're getting used to the physics and find movement techniques that will help you later.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 06, 2011, 23:57:23
I guess nobody agrees with me, then. xD
I still stand by my original opinion, though. :P
When a game has various levels of difficulty do you always play through them all? I normally skip at least the easiest one. Of course I can't know for sure, but after beating everything I did get the feeling that I didn't get as much off the game as i would have gotten if I had played the Alternative mode straight away. I guess normal was too casual for me. x)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Looki on January 07, 2011, 00:18:12
This is not just a level of difficulty. It is an alternative mode. It has completely different puzzles. It's not like the alternative mode has 20 times more enemies than the normal mode or something. :P
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 07, 2011, 00:42:07
Actually the alternative mode is the game Nifflas originally intended to make. :P
It was due to the fact that many players were likely to find it too hard that he then made easier versions of every level. Normal mode is the one which should be called alternative. xD
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Feryl on January 07, 2011, 02:15:24
Interesting. I'm currently playing the normal mode and enjoying it; I'll definitely have to try out the alternative once I'm done too.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: back seat astronaut on January 07, 2011, 05:41:19
Did you all beta test the game?  Or is the game so short that this many people have already played it twice within hours of its release?  (I ask because I haven't had time to download it yet.  I guess I'll see for myself soon enough.)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Yonowaaru on January 07, 2011, 07:56:34
Well, they're probably still all playing the demo version.
Which isn't too long, if you're familiar with these type of games.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: back seat astronaut on January 07, 2011, 08:20:53
I'm familiar with how short Nifflas's games usually are, but I guess I've been hoping that they would start being longer, for two reasons:  1, that he started charging for them, and 2, that he's moved away from pixel art.  I know pixel art is very time-consuming, and when he started using photos for backgrounds instead I thought, that's too bad because I love Nifflas's pixel art, but at least this would free up some time for him to make the games bigger/longer with more areas.  When Saira was released I was pretty surprised at how short it was, considering its price and the use of photos for graphics.  But I guess I was still holding out hope that NightSky would be a longer game, since it was so long in development, and again, didn't require making pixel art for each area.  (Now that I'm playing it I'm actually even surprised at how few photos there are so far.  It's mostly just gradients and black foreground.  I thought a couple years ago Nifflas said he was collecting tons of photos for use in this game.)

Back on topic, now that I've played the first few areas of the game I agree with those who suggest playing the normal game first and then the alternative version second.  This gives you incentive to play the game twice, first for the atmosphere, and then for really hard puzzles.  I agree with those who say that playing the hard version first will make the normal version seem boring and therefore it won't encourage playing twice.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: LPChip on January 07, 2011, 09:10:05
Did you all beta test the game?  Or is the game so short that this many people have already played it twice within hours of its release?  (I ask because I haven't had time to download it yet.  I guess I'll see for myself soon enough.)

I can confirm that Ponto, Looki and I have betatested the game.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: googoogjoob on January 07, 2011, 09:33:47
playing alternative mode before playing normal breaks the satisfying difficulty ramp-up that is otherwise present

if you just played one or the other then whatever but if you play both and you play alternative first it's ruined
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: J on January 07, 2011, 11:04:21
I can confirm that Ponto, Looki and I have betatested the game.
I did too!  C)p

...since it was so long in development, and again, didn't require making pixel art for each area.
Granted. The basic level layouts and fluff were done withing a year or something, then some near-Daikatana-esque delay shenanigans ensued. While saving time at not making pixel art for everything, the level creating mechanism for this is quite a bit more complicated than in, say, Knytt Stories. So it's not like the levels could be whipped up overnight. :D

I thought a couple years ago Nifflas said he was collecting tons of photos for use in this game.
That would've been for Saira. :P

On the topic, I'd personally recommend doing Normal mode first too, if for nothing else than to get a good hang of it first. Unless you just are into challenges more than casual gameplay. As the mode selection inside the game tells you. ;)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 07, 2011, 13:31:40
Paula also beta-tested. :)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: back seat astronaut on January 08, 2011, 01:47:03
I think Nifflas had mentioned collecting photographs before he even announced the existence of Saira, so that must be why I assumed the photos were for NightSky.  When Saira came along I just assumed he was also using some of the photos in that in addition to NightSky.

And wow, I didn't realize so many people got to beta test this game while the rest of us were waiting so long for it!   :P
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Nifflas on January 08, 2011, 02:04:03
I started out taking photographs for games as early as in Knytt Stories. You will find photo based tilesets in the library, and check "Gustav's Daughter" for an example. It was back then I realized I could use photos in games, and started capturing, though not much. Sometime in the development of NightSky I started to use photographs as background for the game. I also decided during NightSky that I wanted to create a game much more around photographs, though I didn't know what that game would be back then. I purchased a digital camera and started to photograph for a whole lot for future games. The library is still growing, and I'm using it a lot in The Great Work, and KnyttWaDF is using even more photos than Saira. I try to not re-use photos too much in different games, but sometime it may happen.

Quote
I'm familiar with how short Nifflas's games usually are, but I guess I've been hoping that they would start being longer, for two reasons:  1, that he started charging for them, and 2, that he's moved away from pixel art.  I know pixel art is very time-consuming, and when he started using photos for backgrounds instead I thought, that's too bad because I love Nifflas's pixel art, but at least this would free up some time for him to make the games bigger/longer with more areas.  When Saira was released I was pretty surprised at how short it was, considering its price and the use of photos for graphics.  But I guess I was still holding out hope that NightSky would be a longer game, since it was so long in development, and again, didn't require making pixel art for each area.  (Now that I'm playing it I'm actually even surprised at how few photos there are so far.  It's mostly just gradients and black foreground.  I thought a couple years ago Nifflas said he was collecting tons of photos for use in this game.)
Photos doesn't make the game creation process faster. It's much more time consuming to design a detailed world even when not drawing every pixel. Often, just opening Photoshop and draw a few pixels is so much faster. Saira have a complex system of several mini-puzzles, each taking time to program, vector animated creatures, a radio simulator, and so on. NightSky was not longer in development than any other Nifflas game, I spent a year on it, but it was difficult to get all those physics puzzles together. It's basically really hard to create a game. I'm one person, sometime getting help from others (sometime even a lot, like with with Yann, Chris and now Agneta), but I still carry the heaviest load myself. I'm extremely efficient wasting minimal time on planning and things that doesn't go into the end product. I'm very hard and fast working. It's not easy to design a game.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: back seat astronaut on January 08, 2011, 02:10:41
Well, since KnyttWaDF will be using photos rather than pixel art and the level design won't be as tricky as with games like Saira and NightSky, maybe that game can be really really long.  (hint hint.)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Nifflas on January 08, 2011, 02:14:56
So, what do you want me to do?
* Take away quality
* Increase the development time
* Don't make the game so long

You're not getting a longer game unless I sacrifice something else instead.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: back seat astronaut on January 08, 2011, 02:24:05
 :oops:  My apologies.  I think my comments came across differently than I meant them.  I wasn't meaning to be critical, but just expressing my wish that your games, which I enjoy so much, could be longer (not just demanding this, but meaning it simply in the sense of "I wish it could be".)  I do realize how much work and difficulty must go into making a whole game by yourself.  It's something I could never do.  Again, I didn't intend what I was saying to be taken as a complaint.  :(  (Also, my last post was before I saw the second part of your previous post.)

For the record, I am loving NightSky so far.  I could never come up with ingenious physical puzzles like you do.

I'll shut up now!  :oops:
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Nifflas on January 08, 2011, 02:27:14
I guess I should be a bit nicer. I've never worked in a team bigger than two people simultanely working full time on the game itself (though I've got a lot of help with contributions like Knytt Stories tileset and music, or KnyttWaDF photos).

I really want to create longer games. However, I need a bigger team. It'd be amazing to work with like four more skilled developers; a full time programmer, two people with level design & graphics skills, and a sound/music person (who can also design levels when there's no sound work to do). I guess I'd be the game designer, but also still do all kinds of things like I do now. We could probably do amazing games. A small indie game dev studio would be a dream come true to me! Perhaps the future can offer this!

Until then, I'll always have to compromise about quality, length, or development time. You're right about one thing though, KnyttWaDF have the potential to be longer than Saira and NightSky. With Saira, I had to design a complicated level format for all the display layers, and a system to display and animate photos from parameters, and become efficient with blending the photos into the graphical look, as well as just learning to get rid of the backgrounds of the photos as fast as possible. With NightSky, I had to learn for the first time how to work with Physics. What's different in KnyttWaDF is that I'm only doing things I know pretty well and have streamlined, so I can make it larger. I don't know how much yet though.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: oskop on January 08, 2011, 02:40:57
A small indie game dev studio would be a dream come true to me!

Why just a dream though? What makes it impossible?
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Nifflas on January 08, 2011, 02:45:34
It's not impossible, it just is not realistic this day, month or possibly even year. As I said though, perhaps the future can offer this!
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: oskop on January 08, 2011, 02:59:48
Well, good luck. Your work deserves it.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: pip on January 08, 2011, 03:19:28
Not sure if this is the right place to post but here we go.

I tried the demo and it was kind of weird seeing the levels and things in them that everyone was speculating about way back when I was on the forum many moons ago.

One odd thing, I clicked on the settings exe file and after that norton wouldn't let me run the game. It was convinced it was attacking my pc. I just uninstalled it all, re downloaded the demo and it runs ok now. Re-running the installer I downloaded the first time wouldn't work. So I was forced to get another copy before norton would let me run the game.
What does the settings exe do ?  :/

I didn't finish the demo, I found the dificulty spiked very high in some places and I was playing the same parts a dozen times so had to stop lol. I'll give it another go but some of the puzzles are really easy to mess up and then your forced to repeat previous parts just to replay the bit you failed. I'm not great at 'precise' gameplay so it's prolly just me being rubbish at it maybe.  :oops:

I also noticed some of the puzzles seemed like some of the levels people made with a physics game creator program on the old forum. I remember nifflas asking us to think up idea's.

I couldn't help but peek at the tilesets in the games folder. And that made me think of the nightgame tileset I made back then too !!!

It's great to see something that caught my imagination back then released, I just need to
try to not be quite so useless at playing it, hehe.

And on last blast from the past memory ..... when I saw the snake and the the cannon .... I couldn't help but chuckle as I can remeber back to those both being talked about back then also.

Maybe I should have a go at making something here on the forum again..... Hmmmm, I never did finish making Skyfalls.   :P

Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Widget on January 08, 2011, 15:19:19
What does the settings exe do ?  :/

It allows you to:
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Miss Paula on January 08, 2011, 16:37:17
And wow, I didn't realize so many people got to beta test this game while the rest of us were waiting so long for it!   :P
I at least was (once again :P) one of the "last-minute"-testers, so I waited only a few days less than you. ;)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 08, 2011, 17:01:48
Same here. :)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: J on January 08, 2011, 18:00:35
I waited only a few years less than you. :crazy:
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 08, 2011, 18:07:20
I waited only a few years less than you. :crazy:
And this (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=4445.0) is what you've been doing since then. ;)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Nifflas on January 08, 2011, 18:36:35
Haha, you've seen nothing yet of Jace's weird NightSky skills :D
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 08, 2011, 18:48:04
He's actually already shown me a couple of frightening screenshots. :P
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: LPChip on January 08, 2011, 19:30:11
I'm only tester for NS for a few months now... Poor me... :nuts:
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: ColinNorthway on January 09, 2011, 18:47:05
(this is either off-topic or back to the original topic)

I'd like to agree with PONTO on his recomendation. As a player (and a game author, but not a beta tester) it was wonderful to be given the chance to play the raw game unfettered by concern for things like aproachable difficulty and hand-holdy tutorials.

I think Nifflas has grabbed on to a really good idea with the way he has split up the difficulties. The split represents a split in his players. One for "gamers" and one for non-gamers (or new gamers). As a gamer I'm thrilled to be thrown in and expected to sort out the world for myself. I'm sure non-gamers are thrilled to not be thrown into that same world. For them it is too much, and that's fine. We all exist somewhere on the spectrum from never-played-a-game to dedicated-our-lives-to-games.

Do you like the Rolling Stones or Acid Jazz? In games I like Acid Jazz (in music I like the Rolling Stones).

Well done Nifflas. It's a great game!
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: PONTO on January 09, 2011, 19:08:05
Yay, someone agrees with me! :D
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: minmay on January 14, 2011, 21:33:56
I agree, too.
Title: Alternative mode
Post by: TTT on January 15, 2011, 19:37:23
I have finished Alternative mode and haven't tried Normal mode.
I liked the Alternative mode. The challenge was well ballanced and appropriately difficult for me. I wouldn't want the game to teach me how to solve the puzzles (which is what I expect it does in the Normal mode to an extent). It's true that I'm not planning to play the Normal mode (nor replay the Alternative mode). Or is there a reason why I should play (or have played) Normal, other than extending the gameplay time?
I like Nifflas' level design in games he released before Knytt - he knows how to make a solid "video game" challenge.
I found NightSky (in the Alternative mode) too long though. Maybe it's because the setting1, the minimalistic form and the story2 didn't particularly appeal to me. The puzzles and the physics are really good on the other hand.

Spoiler: 1 (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: 2 (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: LPChip on January 15, 2011, 19:56:20
Normal mode is slightly different than alternative, so you can safely play them in order to get new levels that are similar to those in the alternate mode.
Title: Re: Alternative mode
Post by: heartskuppy on January 19, 2011, 05:24:01
I found NightSky (in the Alternative mode) too long though. Maybe it's because the setting1, the minimalistic form and the story2 didn't particularly appeal to me. The puzzles and the physics are really good on the other hand.

i can understand the story maybe, but if you're a nifflas fan and you don't like the settings and minimalism.. well, that just doesn't make sense to me. i guess you're only in it for the gameplay?

playing alternative mode before playing normal breaks the satisfying difficulty ramp-up that is otherwise present

if you just played one or the other then whatever but if you play both and you play alternative first it's ruined
On the topic, I'd personally recommend doing Normal mode first too, if for nothing else than to get a good hang of it first.

i agree with these posts. i haven't played all the levels in alternative yet (just the ones in the demo), and while it is definitely a more substantial experience, it does get pretty hard, pretty fast. i think normal mode is necessary to get a handle on the physics and the way the ball controls, if nothing else. plus, if you want to play both, you're hardly going to get much out of normal if that's the one you play second.
Title: Re: Personal advice - please read before playing
Post by: Hiacynt on January 27, 2011, 00:46:16
So, what do you want me to do?
* Take away quality
* Increase the development time
* Don't make the game so long

You're not getting a longer game unless I sacrifice something else instead.

If you allow me to get back to this -  if you have to make such compromises, then I say that you keep things as they are. I'm playing through Saira for some 3rd of 4th time now, just because of how wonderful it is. And I don't think I'll 'free myself' from re-doing it every now and then.
There is so much that you can do with 2D games of the kind that you're making, that I'm confident about the future, if you continue to follow this way :)