Nifflas' Support Forum

Released Games => Knytt Underground => Pre-release topics => Topic started by: Nifflas on December 13, 2010, 01:51:13

Title: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 13, 2010, 01:51:13
Edit: Thank you for your contributions! I still got to spend some time before I add the last material into the game! Then I'll check who contributed how much, and send Knytt T-Shirts to those of you contributed a lot!

Your help means a lot to me, the game wouldn't have been the same without it. Actually, now that I write that, I realize it would probably have been quite different. It would either have taken a lot longer to create or it would contain less graphical variation between the areas.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: smeagle on December 13, 2010, 03:10:35
This new game seems awesome!

I am guessing that the "The only colour that can be used is #000000 black." was the inspiration from night game?  C)

Anyway, is this the kind of thing you wanted? (its attached)
It looks pretty cool how the tile editor works, much easier to make flowing landscapes!



EDIT:

oops, i just read:
I haven't thought about how I'll accept the material yet, perhaps I'll get an upload script up on ni2.se soon that also requires the contributors to accept an agreement. I just need to make sure it's done right from a legal point of view.

So I should probably remove the tileset  X-P
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: PeppyHare4000 on December 13, 2010, 03:29:06
I just might contribute to this. I think i made decent tilesets in knytt stories :)
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: minmay on December 13, 2010, 04:01:38
I'm not sure I understand - are we supposed to post the tilesets in this topic?
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 13, 2010, 08:58:28
I haven't fully decided yet. For official submission I'll probably make a submission form at ni2.se today or tomorrow.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: sergiocornaga on December 13, 2010, 14:56:34
Got a few questions.

Can we have tileset masks where the mask for a single tile is a jagged zigzaggy line that is comprised of only 90 and 45 degree angles, or must each tile be restricted to only one line/angle?

Are there non-stylistic reasons for the constraint to black only? It seems quite restricting... do you think it's something you'll ever reconsider?

Also, what about backgrounds? Are you going to do anything like group thematically linked tilesets/backgrounds/objects together in folders (sort of like the planets in Saira)?

Lastly, can I make tiles that are designed to be deadly? How will that side of things be handled, what sort of deadly collision masks will be available and that sort of thing?

Thanks in advance, and I'm sure I will contribute something. :D
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 13, 2010, 15:18:06
Got a few questions.

Can we have tileset masks where the mask for a single tile is a jagged zigzaggy line that is comprised of only 90 and 45 degree angles, or must each tile be restricted to only one line/angle?
Each tile does not have to be one line/angle. However, there should not be way too much going on in the tile's collision mask, otherwise the ball will bounce strangely. A good restriction is one angle change per 12 pixels.

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Are there non-stylistic reasons for the constraint to black only? It seems quite restricting... do you think it's something you'll ever reconsider?
Graphics in the game is mainly made up by objects, tiles are just a small part of it. The game support tilesets with any number of colours, I'm not just using them for my own level (well, I actually break that rule at a few places, but the restrictions on how that can be done is so tricky that it's just safer to have this limitation).

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Also, what about backgrounds? Are you going to do anything like group thematically linked tilesets/backgrounds/objects together in folders (sort of like the planets in Saira)?
I'm sorting the objects by category. Backgrounds are normally composed out of several objects, and images that cover the entire background are rare. The background colour is configured as a vertical gradient where you can select the top and bottom colours.

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Lastly, can I make tiles that are designed to be deadly? How will that side of things be handled, what sort of deadly collision masks will be available and that sort of thing?
I haven't decided how I will do this yet, I'll have the answer to it later. For now, it's best to do non-deadly tiles, or deadly tiles that either covers a full tile, or exactly half a tile (left half, right half, top half, bottom half).
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Miss Paula on December 13, 2010, 18:37:46
I cannot really imagine what things are supposed to look like. :/
I mean, how many different tilesets are there to be expected that are wholly black and mostly blocky? I'm confused. :sad:
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 13, 2010, 18:47:46
All of them basically, that's only how a tileset can look. The tilesets isn't what mainly do the KnyttWaDF graphics, it's the objects that gives each area an unique look. I know that people here are used to thinking that all graphics are built out of tiles, but it plays a much smaller role in this game than for example Knytt Stories. You don't even get layers for the tiles this time. Tilesets just define if the ground is soft, rocky, sharp, grassy, technological, and so on. However, tilesets are still very important, the player will still begin to noce if the same tiles are used all the time for everything, and small variations will prevent this. The objects at the other hand are much more powerful.

minmay: Thanks for your tileset! It's slightly tricky to use though as it doesn't use actual antialiasing but a blur, which looks different. I use two techniques to do antialiased graphics. One is simply to stick to polygon-like tools (such as Photoshop's polygonal lasso tool, line tool, or pen tool), or draw the image as pixel graphics in 3x the image size and then downsample the image to the desired tileset size.

However, all tilesets that doesn't fit perfectly within the game will go into the library, which will be a lot like Knytt Stories' library that is used by third party level designers.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Miss Paula on December 13, 2010, 21:18:59
Tilesets just define if the ground is soft, rocky, sharp, grassy, technological, and so on.

ahh, that helps with imagining how things are supposed to look, thanks. :)
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: minmay on December 14, 2010, 00:02:38
minmay: Thanks for your tileset! It's slightly tricky to use though as it doesn't use actual antialiasing but a blur, which looks different. I use two techniques to do antialiased graphics. One is simply to stick to polygon-like tools (such as Photoshop's polygonal lasso tool, line tool, or pen tool), or draw the image as pixel graphics in 3x the image size and then downsample the image to the desired tileset size.
I actually used antialiasing at first, but decided it looked really bad due to all the lines going right along the x/y axes.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: sergiocornaga on December 14, 2010, 06:29:43
Thanks a lot for the answers, Nifflas.

The game support tilesets with any number of colours, I'm not just using them for my own level (well, I actually break that rule at a few places, but the restrictions on how that can be done is so tricky that it's just safer to have this limitation).

Just so you know, I'd be interested if you ever decide to explain these restrictions. Is it to do with the way the tiles overlap, or is it far more complicated than that?
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 14, 2010, 10:18:17
It's about making graphics that work with the game actally. All the existing tilesets uses all-black tiles with small exception like a lamp somewhere, or some other minor detail that just happens to fit in some very specific place in the game. It's common to think "what exactly are the limitations, so that I can do as much as possible within them", when what I really hope people to do is to keep a safe distance to the boundaries (the most common reason that I don't include material is that that the authors push the limitations). Tilesets in the main level are in one sense boring, there's not that much room for experimentation or exploring possibilities. It's the objects that mainly does the graphics.

However, all contributions are still welcome even if they do not turn out to fit in perfectly. Remember that there's also the library of content for third party level design, and if you only need to be included there, you can feel free to go totally wild! :)
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: BloxMaster on December 14, 2010, 20:25:56
Nifflas, you didn't actually post that it's possible to actually submit things now.... I myself didn't know until I read the opening post again. X)

Anyway, I can't wait to see how the submissions turn out. (Even if that means waiting until the game itself comes out.)

By the way Nifflas, you say anti-aliasing is 'required'; does that mean that all of the tilesets must be anti-aliased, or just the ones you'd use in the game yourself?
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 14, 2010, 20:26:47
Just the ones I use in the game. In the library, anything goes.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: sergiocornaga on December 16, 2010, 00:27:10
Haha, turns out I have a few more questions after all.

Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 16, 2010, 01:07:15
Tiles appear in front of the character.

The largest collision mask for a character is 24x32 though it is difficult and annoying to climb down a 24-pixel wide hole (so 32x32 is sort of a minimum size for a place where a character can walk). The two different characters uses different collision masks, and when you transform between the characters - if an overlap occurs with the new mask it is pushed out of the wall until it no longer overlaps. However, if this process fails (if there's no nearby room for the new character), the player will die. This is technically not a bug, I specifically designed this to happen. Designing levels with way too narrow spaces should be avoided though.

Tiles are rendered from left to right, from top to bottom, like letters in a book. The last rendered tile appears on the top. As the idea is to stick to all-black for tilesets that will make it into the main game, this information is only really important if you intend to break out of the limitations and do a tileset for the library only.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: sergiocornaga on December 16, 2010, 02:13:40
Thanks! Oh, one more thing: is it possible to place multiple tiles on top of each other like in Knytt Stories?
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on December 16, 2010, 08:58:38
Ah, no, there is just one tileset layer and one sprite layer, but there are at the other hand 12 object layers.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Bubble on December 16, 2010, 23:14:20
I'm going to work on something later on but, for now, here are some templates for Gimp and Photoshop to make these tilesets.  Basically, I just took Nifflas's tileset and added guides to make it clear where the tile and overflow should be drawn.  Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: TheDarkOne on January 03, 2011, 05:32:17
I'm going to throw some together tomorrow, it's 9:32 right now for me.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: sergiocornaga on February 22, 2011, 05:08:26
In working on my tileset I've discovered another question I need answered. Can the collision mask go out of the 32x32 square and into the padding/overflow area?
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on February 22, 2011, 14:37:47
Yeah, sure!
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Headgrinder on March 06, 2011, 22:25:46
So do tilesets make up the collision layer like in KS, or are the two separate like in Knytt Experiment?   Can object be placed in the foreground in front of the tilesets?
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Nifflas on March 06, 2011, 23:26:02
Two separate, one for collision, and one for graphics. Objects can be placed in front of the tilesets.
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: Mr Fish on April 02, 2011, 11:41:05
Heres a totally blank tileset guide

- I'm finding it very useful (It's very much like tileset 0)  :)
Title: Re: Tileset contribution!
Post by: sergiocornaga on May 30, 2011, 08:16:10
I have now finished all the tilesets I can. I was able to implement most of the ideas I had within the time limit, which I'm happy with. When the time comes, I'd like to be involved in beta testing so I can find out if any of my masks are too complex and adjust them if necessary.

Special thanks to Bubble; I used your templates extensively.