Nifflas' Support Forum

Released Games => Saira => Topic started by: Fizzbach on August 22, 2010, 17:00:54

Title: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Fizzbach on August 22, 2010, 17:00:54
So after a bit of a debate with myself I purchased the game.
That was two hours ago, and I just finished it.
Now don't get me wrong, it was a great deal of fun. But I can't shake this ripped off feeling.
I mean seriously? 2 hours? I paid 10$ for this game. I'm not cheap or anything but it strikes me odd to pay 10$ for 2 hours of gameplay, especially with the low replay value (I'm really not into improving my score in square dodge, thankyou).
Also I figured there would more chpaters, what with the option to select and all. I know it's meant for fan created content but searching around the forum I didn't find any of this.
And I read on some posts that the editor is largely unsupported. what.
It's not that I regret the purchase, it's just that I feel somewhat cheated.
And that's all.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: LPChip on August 22, 2010, 17:26:10
There are commercial games that you can finish under 4 hours and they cost 50$.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Yukabacera on August 22, 2010, 17:28:48
LP, please stop screaming "Commercial games are bad!" into everyone's face. Your opinion isn't everyone's opinion.

Oh and, Fizzbach: there are several Saira levels/episodes in the works right now, but you have to understand these are incredibly complex and take a long time to make. Be patient and you'll get more gameplay. Besides, 10 bucks isn't really that expensive.

=|=
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Fizzbach on August 22, 2010, 17:41:19
@LP: Yeah well, I don't even bother with those. Indie games tend to be a lot more worthwhile (and I'm not talking about money).

@I agree it's not a lot of money, but I'm very pickey with the games I buy otherwise I'll waste all my money on games. So when I finally release my iron grip over my wallet I hope what I buy will last me some time, or at least more time then an afternoon.
And when you say levels/episode are in the making, do you mean the original team is working on it or do you talk about fan made content?
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Yukabacera on August 22, 2010, 17:42:37
Nifflas said he won't release any more Saira episodes, so yes, I mean fan-made ones.

=|=
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: BloxMaster on August 22, 2010, 18:42:20
Actually I remember several posts where Nifflas said he might release more episodes later on, and none to the contrary that said "No, I'm done with Saira"

Yukabacera about your first post: I agree with LPChip, and even if I didn't, I still wouldn't agree with your post. I don't think LPChip is "screaming" nor implying anything. He's simply stating facts that people don't like to hear. I felt your post, on the other hand, at least the first part of it, was rather rude. I'm not LPChip but personally I'd be rather annoyed!

On the related note, though; I thought Saira was just the right length for a single episode. That's completely subjective of course. Consider, though, the quality of the game, and not just the length. It may only take you a few hours to beat it, but if you really enjoyed it, that makes it more worth the money. Also consider that when you buy a game, you are not just buying the game- you are supporting the developers. Frankly that in itself is worth the money, because Nifflas has a lot of great games!
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Yukabacera on August 22, 2010, 18:54:15
Of course you don't agree with me: I'm questioning Master LPChip's supreme, totalitarian rule.

And I quite clearly remember Niff saying that he won't release any more Saira episodes. Of course he's not "done" with the game, he'll probably keep releasing updates and new versions and such.

=|=

Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: J on August 22, 2010, 22:31:59
Quote from: Yukabacera on August 22, 2010, 18:54:15
And I quite clearly remember Niff saying that he won't release any more Saira episodes. Of course he's not "done" with the game, he'll probably keep releasing updates and new versions and such.
Quote from: Nifflas on May 17, 2010, 15:50:16
I really like Saira though, and someday I might continue expanding that world too!
I'm guessing you're basing your claim on this post..? Or if some other, feel free to point us to it. ;)

Though I wouldn't say it's highly likely. Seems like he likes to work more on new projects/games, and he's too full of ideas to find a blank moment after releasing a new game. But I wouldn't say it's impossible.

Quote from: Yukabacera on August 22, 2010, 18:54:15
Of course you don't agree with me: I'm questioning Master LPChip's supreme, totalitarian rule.
To be frank, he didn't say "Commercial games are bad", you did. He said that there ARE commercial games which you can finish under the matter of handful of hours, with much higher cost. Not that every commercial game is such. But I'm certain you have solid evidence to counter that fact.

Also, you're questioning somewhat evident facts. Not a "totalitarian rule". This chart (http://greywool.com/misc/chart.jpg) could be useful to keep in mind. ;)
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 23, 2010, 01:07:35
Game design is all about compromises. When I created Knytt Stories, I was able to create a much larger world, thanks for the simple graphics. With Saira's puzzles, animation, graphics, and sounds, I couldn't extend the play time a lot. We were mainly two guys doing all the main work, me for 6-8 hours per day over a full year, to create that short episode. I really put all my energy and soul into into creating something really good.

Then, of course, it's impossible to please everyone. I made Saira shorter so I could spend more time on atmosphere and graphics in it. Some people appreciated that about the game while others didn't. I've heard people saying that Saira is well worth the money (some saying it's really cheap considering what you get for it), and at the other hand there's people who regret paying for a game that turned out to be so difficult or short. For every game I've released, I've received positive and negative reviews. Of course, the people who turn out not to like it will always feel cheated as they paid for it, and the only way to fix that is either to create a game so good that everybody will like it, or set the price so low that no disappointed person will feel they lost something. Unfortunately, the first option is impossible (I'm simply not that good), and the second option could never support my game development. Also, the website itself only points out the full version contains four more planetary systems, I didn't promise anything else. Perhaps I need to state that more clearly somewhere though. I just put the multiple episode support in the game in case I want to do another in the future, or in case someone else wants to. That doesn't mean I plan to right now.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm sorry that you didn't find it worth your money and I wish I could make it so good that you would enjoy it more rather than feeling cheated, but this is bound to happen to some people everytime I release a game. However, I'm more than happy with the general feedback I've received for Saira, and I think $10 is a good price for it.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Dj Gopher on August 23, 2010, 06:30:59
I hate to say that I had a similar feeling, but I quickly tossed it out..
The problem I think is that the demo is too generous, it should be more of just a teaser that forces you to buy the game..
I understand the time and effort that went into it, and greatly appreciate it, and would gladly donate to nifflas - if I get a game, even better.
I just feel that there was so much available in the demo that it made the bought version seem unworthy of the 10 dollars..
I would of gladly paid 20 for the whole game, though.

For future reference, the non-freeware games (in my opinion) should have demos that allow a maximum of 10-15 minutes of playtime that make the user beg for more.
If I couldn't leave past lomond I would have gone insane and bought the full version without a second of question..
Letting me get an ending sort of let my hype die down..

There's truly nothing bad to say about saira.. other than it's marketing techniques :D

(By the way, by far in my top 2-3 favorite games of all time :D )
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 23, 2010, 09:09:18
The problem with a small demo is that it works best with more marketing. Even small teams usually have more resources than me to deal with that, so I had to make the game market itself. The advantage of a bigger demo is that it spreads the game better. In the end, it's still the same amount of money, and the same amount of game, but now people get to try more of it before they buy. The problem with a really short demo would be that people wouldn't know the game difficulty, which means I'd get a lot more "I paid $10 for a game that's just way too hard" instead, and considering that the difficulty have been some people's main issue about the game (people aren't used to difficult games in the 2000's), I think that could have been even more of a problem.

Samorost 2 did this same thing, the demo is one chapter, while the full game contains two. Getting the second chapter is $5, and it does only really contain four "rooms" that you beat in 30-60 minutes or something. I never saw a problem in paying for that though, because I really enjoyed it.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: LPChip on August 23, 2010, 09:45:54
Nifflas, you're underestimating the marketing you already have. Saira got lots of attention through your site and forum, but also lots of reviews on several indy gaming websites. Really, marketingwise, you've got a fanbase.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 23, 2010, 10:08:41
Yeah, but unfortunately it's not large enough. Saira would never have been a success at all if I didn't get it up on Steam, and the Steam release isn't even something I planned from the start, so based on what I knew back then, I had the right thinking. And again, the difficulty thing...
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Fizzbach on August 25, 2010, 19:09:08
So I've been away from home for the last 2 days and I was surprised by the amount of attention this thread got.
So first I'd like to thank you all and point out this is the most helpful and active support forum I got to see.

Bloxmaster, about what you said about supporting the developer... I guess I wasn't clear of that but that was my first reason for buying the game (Except for the intention of playing it etc.). I could have just as easily downloaded the game illeagaly, like I normally do. Yep, I pirate. Sue me.
But I just loved everything about this game from the first second of the demo.
I liked the fluid platforming, the intresting puzzles, the silly minigame, and especially the the plot and general atmosphere.
And when I put it like this... yeah, it was definitely worth the 10$. It's not about the money like it's about how I just wish there was more of the game, just because it's such a great game.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 26, 2010, 14:27:44
Actually, I wish it was longer too :) Perhaps in the future if I can afford to have a bigger team, we'll be able to do that!
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: hagmo on August 26, 2010, 20:48:37
I'd like to throw in a cent or two. My feelings were exactly those of the OP's, but the reason was false expectations from the demo and website.

I interpreted the "four more planetary systems" as four more episodes. :oops: My bad, I know, but the demo episode has an ending that corresponds with the title of the episode, so it felt like just an introduction to the game - and the rest of the story. The episode selection button confused me further, since I expected to use it after purchasing the game.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
(The above paragraph contains somewhat spoiler-ish information on the game's ending, which I found unsatisfactory.)

In the end, I don't know what this discussion/rant will achieve. I just felt a sudden need to vent. :) I enjoyed the game a lot, and it felt good to finally be able to support the developer economically. 10 euros is not an unfair price, but the demo made me expect more.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 27, 2010, 21:58:43
Hmmm, I might have to correct that. I thought it was more obvious than it really is. The episode selector is only there because the game have support for addons.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Dataflashsabot on August 27, 2010, 22:13:43
Perhaps you could make it so the episode selector is only shown if additional episodes are available?
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Miss Paula on August 27, 2010, 22:55:58
although it seems that the actual discussion/controversy or whatever is not really actual anymore, I'd like to link up an article that concerns this topic at least peripherically: More in the Bottle - The dubious value of game length (on ArsTechnica) (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/08/more-in-the-bottle-the-dubious-value-of-game-length.ars)
yaaay
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 28, 2010, 00:46:38
Quote from: Dataflashsabot on August 27, 2010, 22:13:43
Perhaps you could make it so the episode selector is only shown if additional episodes are available?
It's better if I find a way to explain it on the website than in the game. I just need to come up with a text that can't be misunderstood. Feel free to make suggestions!

Quote
It's a nice idea to let the community continue the story (if that is what will indeed happen) but the best ending almost feels like a cliffhanger. >(
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

In other words, I won't really "fix" the cliffhanger type of things going on, but I realize I'll have to be better at explaing what people get when they purchase something.

Quote
although it seems that the actual discussion/controversy or whatever is not really actual anymore, I'd like to link up an article that concerns this topic at least peripherically: More in the Bottle - The dubious value of game length (on ArsTechnica)
yaaay
That's some interesting reading! Thanks for the link!
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Fishos on August 28, 2010, 16:11:16
Hi, just posting to say Saira was the best $10 I spent in years. It was amazing. The puzzles were smart, the storyline was enchanting and the graphics were perfect. It's a wonderful creation, and an important piece of art for all humanity.

I'm not surprised to see people complain they didn't get the worth of their $10 because the game was too short. Some people just don't understand. I feel sorry for them.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 28, 2010, 16:35:17
I like to think the game is well worth the $10, but if some people thought they would get more content than they did, I'm still the one who must take the blame for not being clear enough with the information. I do not want to give people false expectations, and when it happens it's never intentional. I've updated the website to actually state which solar systems that are unlocked to avoid confusion.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Zelakon on August 28, 2010, 22:24:48
Forgive me for being so short-sighted.  I honestly can't see any justification for complaints like these when you consider NOT having to pay for any of Nifflas' previous high quality games, let alone the hours of crisply produced electronic music given away via the niffpage.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Dj Gopher on August 30, 2010, 10:06:12
@Nifflas
Reading what you said in reply to my post is helpful to understanding your decision.
I still think you were a bit generous.. But:
A: that isnt really a bad thing :D
B: You are probably right about marketing..

I think of it differently, your games are the only 'indie' games I follow, so a nifflas game seems to me like everyone would know about it.
I dont think about how relatively small the community is..
So, now that I consider that, you're right :)

Also
Quote from: Nifflas on August 26, 2010, 14:27:44
Actually, I wish it was longer too :) Perhaps in the future if I can afford to have a bigger team, we'll be able to do that!
If this wasn't playful sarcasm, I can give 100% of my effort to try
I have mmf2, but no work.. I can't build physics but I can help with spriting, level design and script/storyboard
Assuming you were serious, of course :)


Edit:
I want to be clear that I wasn't saying the game itself isn't worth 10 $, I'd honestly pay a lot more if I had to..
The presentation seemed like it went like this..

hype building through spoilers and speculation
hype building with a release date
hype building as you download the demo
hype slows when demo is finished

The rest of the game was nothing short of fantastic, but you arent paying for the game.. you're paying for the endings.
Psycologically, at least.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Nifflas on August 30, 2010, 14:17:06
Quote
If this wasn't playful sarcasm, I can give 100% of my effort to try
I have mmf2, but no work.. I can't build physics but I can help with spriting, level design and script/storyboard
Assuming you were serious, of course :)
No sarcasm was intended. I want to work in a bigger team and work full-time on developing games together, probably around 4-5 people would be ideal. Thing is, it's a lot of work to create even a small game, so I wouldn't want anyone aboard before I can actually compensate the people accordingly. I offered Saira's ship radio channels as advertising for the musicians who was part of it (which is why they often mention who they are, what the songs are called, and where you can get their music). That way, I didn't pay them for having the music in the game, but when it comes to actual material for the game, like graphics and ingame music, I feel obligated to pay, which also gets a bit tricky as it involves contracts, money transactions and lots of legal details.

We'll see what happens in the future though. There was absolutely no sarcasm though. It'll just take some time to sort it all out.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: sirlivealot on May 04, 2011, 02:15:57
It was a bit short but I was happy to support Nifflas considering how much I played Knytt.
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Fizzbach on December 19, 2012, 22:30:23
So it's been a while.
I've been really excited for a while about knytt underground, and the release made me remember about the only time I ever signed on to a forum for the sole reason of complaining.
Needless to say I changed somewhat over those years. I'm nearly 20 now and even though i'm still an awkward teenager inside i've gained a different perspective about some things.
I remember Saira very very fondly. From time to time this game pops up in my memory and what comes to mind is the great fun I had with it, the brilliant atmosphere, and especially the varied planets of different colors and the incredible attention to detail. I remember finding a statue on a dark planet which had mystified me then and still dose today.
I think I never replayed Saira since the day i first posted this topic, so I guess I never got my so called "Replay Value", a term I now days treat with caution, but nevertheless the experience walks with me.
I suspect at the time I was partly ashamed of my compulsion towards video games and "wasting" money on video games used to make me feel guilty. That compulsion turned slowly over the years into affection and enthusiasm, and I now have a different way, a different tool set, to measure the "worth" of a game.
Saira is still to this day one of the best platformers I ever played and has a special place in my heart for many reasons, and I think that's worth AT LEAST 10$. Probably more.

P.S.
The only PlayStation In my house is a PS2 that my friend lent me so I really really hope Knytt Underground is really coming to PC because i'd hate to miss out on that =(
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: GrayFace on December 20, 2012, 04:43:03
It sure is coming: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=113281105&searchtext=knytt+underground
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: Fizzbach on December 20, 2012, 08:36:13
Oh, sweet. Thanks!
Title: Re: Consider me a bit dissapointed.
Post by: MechanicalPen on March 19, 2013, 00:54:53
This game kept me entertained during downtime on my vacation when it first came out. I played it about a planet at a time over a week. The only thing that has disappointed me is the complete lack of any fan-made addons! I suppose it is because no one has MMF2 to design new puzzle modules with...