Nifflas' Support Forum
Released Games => Knytt Stories => Topic started by: Bolshevik on March 28, 2009, 14:00:03
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I absolutely adore KS, and have played numerous third-party levels, and this is the reason why I would like to warn the community (particularly newbies who are just starting to discover the world of third-party levels) about, well, certain levels becoming inaccessible after knyttlevels.com is redesigned and the copyright rule enforced. So (no spoilers):
Obviously, the legendary "Don't Eat the Mushroom" won't be available, as it uses a whole song by a commercial artist, without permission. Similarly obvious is the exclusion of Medic Ted's "A Psychedelic Adventure", which uses music from a commercial game without permission.
Slightly less obvious is that two absolutely gorgeous levels which both attained cult status, won't be available: "Riku Island" and "A Walk at Night". Both use a cover of Mark Seibert's song from Sierra's commercial game, "Quest for Glory"/"Hero's Quest", which is, I believe, not only used without permission but also without Seibert credited.
I love these levels. I think they're all masterpieces. And so do many other players, if the old forum is anything to judge by. This is why I'm posting this. If you haven't played them, get them while you can, while they're still available. Links to the old forum are forbidden now, but you can only get the latest version of "Riku Island" (v5.5) there. Look for it - try the environmental list by Elder at "Favorite level lists". Remember that all links to posts and topics there still work, you just have to substitute "forum" with "forum2" in a link to make it work.
(Also, of the newer levels, the recent environmental hit, "Knytt on the Moon", uses music from a commercial film without permission. The music itself is not copyrighted, but the recording used in the level is.)
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No.....but you can replace the music with something very similar ;)
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Quite honestly, when we start making copyright our main priority instead of putting in the music we love the level quality and quality in general declines. I highly doubt knyttlevels will be sued for copyright infringement. It's a stupid rule to make levels with copyrighted music on it unavailable and I highly stress you get rid of the rule.
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Quite honestly, when we start making copyright our main priority instead of putting in the music we love the level quality and quality in general declines. I highly doubt knyttlevels will be sued for copyright infringement. It's a stupid rule to make levels with copyrighted music on it unavailable and I highly stress you get rid of the rule.
Just because its inconvenient doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.
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The problem is, unlikely though it may be, it is possible that the archive and/or the forum might be forced down by a copyright infringement complaint.
Now, this probably won't happen, but it's not really worth it for the community as a whole to take the risk, and it's a bad idea for the forum management to appear to accommodate this sort of thing.
There really are many levels that will be affected by this. The reason they weren't taken down before was either because it was done without the knowledge of the staff, or because the level was hosted on some other filehosting site, so all that could be done in the short term was to remove the link, or because of various other reasons. Don't Eat the Mushroom is the most prominent example of a level that makes use of copyrighted material without permission. I'm actually surprised nothing was done about it at any point, and its existence and high visibility can only have encouraged a permissive attitude towards copyright infringement.
Now, however, since all levels are to be hosted on the same site, enforcement of the rule is going to be practical. There really are many levels from the "golden era" of KS levels that break the rule. I don't know what exactly is going to be done about them. Some levels will be able to survive without their music, or with replaced music (for authors who have gone MIA, someone with the level could perhaps strip it of the offending material, and then upload the level so it's still available). However, a good portion of these levels rely on the music. DEtM needs What Is Love? to maintain its aura of bizarreness. Lemme Take You To The Beach likewise, only more so since it's even named after the song. Vengeance needs its music to maintain its intense atmosphere, and replacing the music with the default ambient stuff would just kill it.
There are other examples. I suppose these levels are just going to be lost. (Of course, there won't be anything stopping users from trading "bootleg" copies of the offending levels outside the confines of the forum and archive- but this of course would be done at the users' own risk.) The loss of DEtM in particular will be painful, as it is responsible (by way of videos on YouTube and posts on other forums) for drawing in a good many users who otherwise would not know anything about KS.
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Quite honestly, when we start making copyright our main priority instead of putting in the music we love the level quality and quality in general declines. I highly doubt knyttlevels will be sued for copyright infringement. It's a stupid rule to make levels with copyrighted music on it unavailable and I highly stress you get rid of the rule.
Just because its inconvenient doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.
Fair point, but then why do this NOW? Why the sudden decision? If it were that way from the beginning - hey, guys, don't make levels with copyrighted music - I'd have less of an issue with it, but just starting this spontaneously right now? It seems like it goes along with the upgrade which seems really lame.
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Now, however, since all levels are to be hosted on the same site, enforcement of the rule is going to be practical. There really are many levels from the "golden era" of KS levels that break the rule. I don't know what exactly is going to be done about them. Some levels will be able to survive without their music, or with replaced music (for authors who have gone MIA, someone with the level could perhaps strip it of the offending material, and then upload the level so it's still available). However, a good portion of these levels rely on the music. DEtM needs What Is Love? to maintain its aura of bizarreness. Lemme Take You To The Beach likewise, only more so since it's even named after the song. Vengeance needs its music to maintain its intense atmosphere, and replacing the music with the default ambient stuff would just kill it.
And therefore this, is the problem with copyright - Mushroom wouldn't be the same without Haddaway, ditto for a number of other levels... and since music is such an integral part of KS getting rid of these things would be a terrible shame and would make the levels considerably worse.
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Quite honestly, when we start making copyright our main priority instead of putting in the music we love the level quality and quality in general declines. I highly doubt knyttlevels will be sued for copyright infringement. It's a stupid rule to make levels with copyrighted music on it unavailable and I highly stress you get rid of the rule.
Just because its inconvenient doesn't mean we shouldn't follow the law.
Fair point, but then why do this NOW? Why the sudden decision? If it were that way from the beginning - hey, guys, don't make levels with copyrighted music - I'd have less of an issue with it, but just starting this spontaneously right now? It seems like it goes along with the upgrade which seems really lame.
It does go along with the upgrade. The upgrade makes it much easier for any copyright problems to be dealt with quietly and efficiently.
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Not "Walk at night" :sad: :sad: :sad:
My favourite level of all time... thats why i have three copies C)p (normal knytt stories, greenmod and just another copy) Muahahaha.
but seriously its such a shame, DetM , Riku Island and the new one knytt on the moon all down the internet drain.
But heres a problem, if we want to use certain music we have to contact the person who created it and ask thier permission, right? Well what happends if they're famous? The we can't use can we? (This might screw up the intro to the Scavenger series :S )
Now i can say this is "unfair" and other things but oviously the decision has been done and we have to suck it up. Thankfully i have a copy of every level you just named :P2 so im set for life XD
But its still a shame............... oh well. There will still be fantastic levels C)p
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This has been the case in the past too. Not just now.
The principle will be the same as it used to be.
If you use copyrighted material in a level, it can get the forum/archive in trouble, because it basically means sharing a song that you normally have to pay for, and thus you got it illegally for free without the permission from the author.
Its the same as using a peer-to-peer network or even just uploading that mp3 file to the forum. You share something you haven't made without the artist knowing about it.
We will continue to act the same: Yes, it is illegal. And no, we will not check every level to see if its breaking the rule. If you indeed think you are above the law, and are willing to take the risk to put illegal music in your level, then be sure to know that it'll be taken down if we get a request and on top of that, we could be giving your ip adress to this party.
I also will have to put a "report this level" link on the archive, and if its used to tell us that a level has illegal music in it, we'll also will remove it (after confirming that it does).
So technically, if you're lucky, you could upload the level to the archive, and it could be there for some time.
Then again, it'll be on J's hosting service, so he might not want this cus he doesn't want to loose his hosting.
To combat this, I might add an option to have an url to your level instead of uploading it to the archive itself. That'll make it more secure for J in case of illegal levels.
Still, you're taking the biggest risk in uploading a level with illegal content. We just want to protect everyone.
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Dont worry LPChip im not going to :) (guess ill just use some defult music instead or ask some one with musical talent on the forum to help me instead C)p)
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if we want to use certain music we have to contact the person who created it and ask thier permission, right? Well what happends if they're famous? The we can't use can we? (This might screw up the intro to the Scavenger series :S )
Actually you'd be surprised.
I believe limanjs16 (or James16) managed to get approval from Moby to use music in a level.
And for non-profit projects (small or big) if you ask politely (grab their email from the official site) they'll often grant authorization. Send them a link to download KS for themselves, so they can see what game their music is going to, tell them that you want to use one of their tunes in a level that you're designing to release to the community (maybe even send them a draft of the level) and ask for permission to use the music, and chances are it'll work.
Don't think that because their face is on the cover of "Rolling Stones" that they're untouchable and not interested. (although due to the sheer mass of emails that they recieve, it may take some time, and sometimes they'll not respond, or say no).
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if we want to use certain music we have to contact the person who created it and ask thier permission, right? Well what happends if they're famous? The we can't use can we? (This might screw up the intro to the Scavenger series :S )
Actually you'd be surprised.
I believe limanjs16 (or James16) managed to get approval from Moby to use music in a level.
And for non-profit projects (small or big) if you ask politely (grab their email from the official site) they'll often grant authorization. Send them a link to download KS for themselves, so they can see what game their music is going to, tell them that you want to use one of their tunes in a level that you're designing to release to the community (maybe even send them a draft of the level) and ask for permission to use the music, and chances are it'll work.
Don't think that because their face is on the cover of "Rolling Stones" that they're untouchable and not interested. (although due to the sheer mass of emails that they recieve, it may take some time, and sometimes they'll not respond, or say no).
Thanks for that C)p I might try that, the level still in progress and i think i might have to change the intro any way, it all depends in the end. (also i don't think i have seen DJ Shadow's face on any of the albums, just to let you know)
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Yeah, it is a bit of a shame about the whole copy-right thing, the standark music is decent, but there isn't enough variety... :/
Oh yeah, I'm not sure if this the best place to ask this, but what should we do if we want to use music from a game?...
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Yeah, it is a bit of a shame about the whole copy-right thing, the standark music is decent, but there isn't enough variety... :/
Oh yeah, I'm not sure if this the best place to ask this, but what should we do if we want to use music from a game?...
Thats gonna start a whole new arrgument! XD
But anyways i think this rule applies for the game genre too. Because its gonna be even harder if u want permission from a company (eg. Bungie - who made Halo)
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Indeed. Exceptions would be games where the copyright has expired or even better, the platform itself doesn't exist anymore.
A good example of that is C64 music. There's even a complete scene to remix these kinds of songs and its not illegal, cus the copyright expired and the C64 platform kind of doesn't exist anymore either.
Old dos games might have the same, and the company could no longer exist too. In such case, you could do it.
Fangames is no exception to this, but if you add that its a fan game, you most likelly get permission as long as you make the reference clear. (its like additional commercials for them)
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The music in games is generally copyrighted too, so the same thing applies there as for commercial artists.
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Indeed. Exceptions would be games where the copyright has expired or even better, the platform itself doesn't exist anymore.
*facepalm*
How many times do people need to be reminded of this? And LPChip, of all people? No copyrights on video games have expired! Video games haven't even been around long enough!
Nearly all countries in the world that even have a copyright law have a minimum expiration term of at least 50 years after the last surviving author's death.
Unless you live in Afghanistan or something, it's totally illegal to use music from another game in your level without permission. I'd say it's much worse than using a big commercial song like What is Love?, because people likely won't know what the music is from.
That said, if you want music in your level, put some effort into actually finding decent ambient music available under Creative Commons (or a similar attribution license) instead of just pulling it out of a random game, because I'm sick of hearing music that doesn't fit anyway, and now it's actually forbidden. Or better yet, make your own music, though obviously not everyone is capable of that.
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I wasn't saying that it expires that quickly, I only mentioned it as a fact because otherwise people will ask: but what if it expires?
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Oh. You implied there was music that could be used now. Okay then, nevermind.
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Oh. You implied there was music that could be used now. Okay then, nevermind.
Music from C64 games can be used, yes. Its impossible to contact the companies that made the music because everything related to C64 kind of doesn't exist anymore. Hench the fact that there's a huge community around remixing C64 tunes.
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Thats gonna start a whole new arrgument! XD
Don't want to say it, but i told you so! XD sorry couldn't help myself
but LPChip is quite right
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Music from C64 games can be used, yes. Its impossible to contact the companies that made the music because everything related to C64 kind of doesn't exist anymore. Hench the fact that there's a huge community around remixing C64 tunes.
That's why it's tolerated, but those C64 tunes are still under copyright.
To quote : http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html :
"As a general rule, for works created after January 1, 1978, copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years. For an anonymous work, a pseudonymous work, or a work made for hire, the copyright endures for a term of 95 years from the year of its first publication or a term of 120 years from the year of its creation, whichever expires first."
The C64 was released in 82, so all C64 tunes were made after this law, and therefore are bound by it.
That means that the earliest the C64 music copyrights will expire is 2052 (assuming someone wrote a tune on a C64 just as it came out, then died immediately after).
So if you really want to be safe, don't use anything made by anyone else in the past century. In the mean time, let's get things moving, because copyright might be intended to protect the artist, but it's killing derivative work, and is obviously stupid, because no-one can argue that 70 years after the death of an author the piece still has economical value (at least in the general case, where all the money is made in the first five years. Waiting five years to make a remix isn't that bad after all)
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I've done my research, and I also found that, but there's one thing that people miss here.
Copyright is about spreading the source.
A C64 game itself cannot be spread, but that should be impossible anyway because thats the part that has died. There's no support on the hardware to run it, and old 5.25" discs are hard to find too. The music from the C64 cannot be copied like that. It has to be recorded. Recording something goes about the artist right, not the copyright.
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I've done my research, and I also found that, but there's one thing that people miss here.
Copyright is about spreading the source.
A C64 game itself cannot be spread, but that should be impossible anyway because thats the part that has died. There's no support on the hardware to run it, and old 5.25" discs are hard to find too. The music from the C64 cannot be copied like that. It has to be recorded. Recording something goes about the artist right, not the copyright.
If that's true, then it's not copyright that's being breached when someone seeds a movie over the net, since the original data isn't what's being sent, but only the conversion of a recording.
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Copyright is about spreading the source.
If that's true, then it's not copyright that's being breached when someone seeds a movie over the net, since the original data isn't what's being sent, but only the conversion of a recording.
You don't get my point.
If you were to share the entire C64 game, it was a copyriht infriction. But people only rip the music, which is against the authors right.
See it as having a book. If someone wrote a book, and you sell it against their knowledge, you're breaching the copyright. If you create your own book, but you copy text from his book and optionally alter the words a little bit, you're breaching the authors right.
Do note that breaching the authors right, is still illegal.
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(Also, of the newer levels, the recent environmental hit, "Knytt on the Moon", uses music from a commercial film without permission. The music itself is not copyrighted, but the recording used in the level is.)
I realize this is incredibly late, but I just stumbled across it.
You said the music is in a commercial game and used without permission, but I must argue this, because the 2 of the audios used are made by Kevin Macleod, one titled "Frost Waltz" and the other "Fairytale Waltz". Everything Kevin Macleod makes is free to the public to use, therefore it isn't infringing copyright, and the third audio is some age old classical music in public domain...
I got your back, Imaddo. ;)
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the third audio is some age old classical music in public domain...
The music itself is not copyrighted, but the recording used in the level is.
(The music is more than a hundred years old, but the recording is only about forty.)
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the third audio is some age old classical music in public domain...
The music itself is not copyrighted, but the recording used in the level is.
(The music is more than a hundred years old, but the recording is only about forty.)
Do we who made that recording, and whether it's free to use, just like Fairytale/Frost Waltz?
It could have a Creative Commons license.
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It's an excerpt of the recording of Also sprach Zarathustra used in the film 2001: A Space Odyssey. It was made in 1959 by Herbert von Karajan and the Vienna Philharmonic. It is most definitely not under a CC license.
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It's an excerpt of the recording of Also sprach Zarathustra used in the film 2001: A Space Odyssey. It was made in 1959 by Herbert von Karajan and the Vienna Philharmonic. It is most definitely not under a CC license.
But do to it's incredible shortness, would it not fall safe under "Fair Use"? Well, as safe as something can be under FU...
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It probably is fair use, yes. It's less than twenty seconds long; it isn't of very high quality; it could be construed as being used in a parody of its source; it isn't being sold; etc. However, it isn't credited.
Fair use cases can get pretty far into gray areas, though I'd say the use of this recording is defensible.
Also, since this is a public domain piece of music, it probably wouldn't be very hard at all to find a CC-licensed recording. (If a longer recording is to be used.)
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So would there be much of a problem of uploading it to the Archive when it's finished?
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I imagine there wouldn't be much problem at all, but I don't know what exactly the final submission rules are to be.