Nifflas' Support Forum

Being Creative => Collaborations => Topic started by: egomassive on March 04, 2010, 07:13:10

Title: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on March 04, 2010, 07:13:10
I've been working on a Knytt Stories level since October. I don't expect this level to be released until the end of this year or the beginning of next. It's far too early in the development to even consider doing a preview, but I have finished a lot of the graphics. I plan to include 100% custom tilesets of the highest caliber. The level will be an easy to hard story based challenge. Also, I want to include all original music.

Music is where you come in. I've searched the planet for Creative Commons songs and whatnot, and found a few that would work. The problem is finding enough music to fill a large game that works together. Most of the music out there seems to be created with the intention that the song is all there is. They tend to take the foreground when I want something to play in the background.

Specifically, I want music made to match the different environments in the game. I want it made to set the mood rather than command attention. Also I'd like a theme created, a theme that will be heard in little or large extents in various areas of the game.

If you think you'd like to be my musician, or possibly one of a few musicians, then please give me links to some representative works. I've included some screen shots of a few areas below. A story synopsis can be provided upon request.

Below is a dense forest (this is a lush serene place with simple folk), the canopy of the forest, a city of bright skyscrapers (It's only pretty on the surface. It's full of corruption and greed at it's heart.), the city sewers (It's a little bit steam-punk and a lot convoluted.) Other areas planned are a rocky coast, a spooky forest, a burrow much like the dense forest, rocky caverns, lava caverns, a snowy island with ice crystal caves.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Razzorman on March 04, 2010, 08:29:37
I could make some ambient stuff for you, but don't count on me providing you with an entire soundtrack. I'm way too lazy for that. X)
Here's one of my songs, if you're interested. (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=2831.0)
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: the Jack on March 04, 2010, 14:33:07
Oh, wow, those are gorgeous. You really make me wish I was musically inclined enough to compose music for it. Alas, I'm mildly tone deaf, so any melody I tried to create would probably be disastrous... though my sense of rhythm is fine, and I have a serious percussion collection: one ceramic-bodied & two wood-bodied djembes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djembe), several smaller drums, assorted rattles, maracas & other 'noisemakers' including a funky wooden frog that's a cross between a güiro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCiro) and a moktak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wooden_fish), a set of Tibetan chimes, and a couple of calabash kalimbas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalimba) I picked up because they go so well with non-tonal percussion instruments in a drum circle.

But the kinds of music I can make with those probably aren't going to be the kind of music you're looking for.  :/
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Feline Monstrosity on March 04, 2010, 17:20:34
This level looks awesome and I'd love to compose some music for it, but at the moment I don't have a computer with which I can compose (just a little netbook). I'm hopefully getting a new Mac this summer though (maybe as late as September) so if this is that long-term a project then perhaps I can help at a later stage, if you're still working on it.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on March 05, 2010, 07:35:30
@Razzorman: I like the 6ft tall Koala and the WaDF2 City, is that still alive?. You've definitely got the right idea. I'd like to have you on board. You would have most of a year to work on it. Also, I think I'm going to go with multiple artists collaborating.

@Jack: I have no idea what all that would even sound like. It would be hard to make an all percussion piece that doesn't command attention and doesn't drown out the sounds of Juni's footfalls. However, I would like to say to everyone that you don't necessarily have to be a tracker to get in on this. You just need to be able to make enjoyable background music.

@FM: I don't want to wait that long to start on music. Sorry.

I've been thinking since I posted yesterday  that breaking the work up among several artists would be best. I think the first step is to come up with a theme, a main melody. Once someone creates this, it could be sampled and remixed by other artists to create a few more of the tracks. Then the remaining tracks could be created by the same artists individually.

Once I finish writing the story, I'll be able to create a storyboard, and then a world map. With the world map created I'll be able to tell the musicians how large the different sections will be and, to a lesser extent, how long it should take to complete them. The environments will dictate the nature of the tracks and the size will dictate the length. I am willing to adjust my stuff to accommodate your stuff if the need arises. (eg. I ask for a 7 minute song. You make an 8 minute song and love it. I agree and lengthen the area.)

One last note: I will be using the music as music and not ambi. I don't like the way music behaves when treated like an ambiance track.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: the Jack on March 05, 2010, 14:05:31
Quote from: egomassive on March 05, 2010, 07:35:30
@Jack: I have no idea what all that would even sound like. It would be hard to make an all percussion piece that doesn't command attention and doesn't drown out the sounds of Juni's footfalls. However, I would like to say to everyone that you don't necessarily have to be a tracker to get in on this. You just need to be able to make enjoyable background music.

Well, that's part of why I threw you a couple of wiki links -- most of their percussion-instrument articles include audio samples. I don't expect most people to even know a djembe from a set of bongos.

Wrt drowning out Juni's footfalls, I think you may be thinking of kit drums (the kind heard in most rock songs, marching bands, etc.) which are very different from the acoustic/organic sounds most hand-percussion instruments produce.

But if you're shooting for a team of collaborating musicians... I have Audacity and a mic, so I can readily record sound samples for use by people who can actually compose songs. I think I'll try recording most of my instruments -- maybe this weekend, though I seem to have messed up my back which could make playing difficult -- and upload short samples to give a "feel" for each one. If there are a couple you particularly like the sound of, I could make those exclusive to this level if you prefer, and open up the rest to whoever wants to use them for sampling for other levels and/or non-KS uses. It would be nice to see more music composed for KS get away from synthesised-drum beats... which have their place, but are better suited to a technology-themed level or area than to a nature-themed one.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on March 05, 2010, 17:06:10
I'll leave the sample selecting to the musicians. They need to have the freedom to create. I don't want to interfere with their process anymore than necessary.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: StaticRomantic on March 07, 2010, 03:56:52
i can also contribute, if you want any more help.
here is a sample of my current project: http://www.box.net/shared/lbdqjsca7x

i use Reason and Ableton, and have samples of virtually all instruments known to mankind.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on March 09, 2010, 09:05:04
@SR: I've listened to your song about 30 times. It just doesn't feel right. I like most of the pieces, but it's like they don't fit together right. I think you'll have something good if you keep working on it.



It sounds good for a rocky, lonely waterfront or sad, lonely ice cave. I don't know that I'll want much sadness or loneliness in the level. It would help if I could provide a game script so you know what I want, but I'm still writing it. Mystery and curiosity are always good feelings for an exploration based game.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: StaticRomantic on March 10, 2010, 21:30:53
oh ya its definitely in progress, i was just giving that as an example.
i would start from scratch for a song for your level, not use this one.
unless you want me to modify this for your level, and make it much longer/different. i could do that too.

i'm actually in the middle of recording vocals for it, so ya its structured a bit weird (ex: the strange claps and stuff actually work with the vocals.) it's not meant to be an instrumental piece.
it's a cover of Regina Spektor's "On the Radio", if you want to listen to that song and sing along with this youll find the structure.

but thanks for the tips, ill keep them in mind.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Neotrice on March 11, 2010, 23:35:06
I can't compose or even make music, but I recommend 8-Bit collective.
Then again, I'm a n00b and you're probably all been there.

http://8bitcollective.com/music/

But I like it for BGMs and such, even just music to listen to. It's Creative Commons, I do believe, only requiring a link to the artist's page.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Razzorman on March 12, 2010, 00:26:55
Actually, I've never seen that posted before. :P
However, originally composed music will still be a lot cooler than something you got with a CC license.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: lilmanjs16 on March 14, 2010, 21:50:27
I could try to make some stuff for this level. if anything that's up on my soundcloud fits I'll be glad to make more in those styles
link:
http://www.soundcloud.com/lilmanjs
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on March 16, 2010, 04:47:23
@lilmanjs16: I listened to your entire sound cloud. Everything is huge. I try to imagine your songs as environments and I'm always in wide open spaces; oceans, deserts, tundras, space. TToK --working title-- is mostly going to be cramped environments; tunnels, dense forests, a crowded city, labyrinthine temples. Also, Knytt Stories in general is very small. The screens are small. The creatures are small. The sounds the creatures make are small. Your forays into non-ambient genres were successful, and the ambient itself was quality work. I'm interested to see what you would do with TToK in mind. Pick one of the previews above and see what you come up with. Or, the temples will feel somewhat like Dungeon by Evangelos (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/Evangelos%20-%20Dungeon.knytt.bin). Play it with the sound off and see what it inspires.

@Razzorman: I give you the same advice I just gave lilmanjs16. Pick a screen and see what it inspires, or play Dungeon by Evangelos (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/Evangelos%20-%20Dungeon.knytt.bin) and see what it inspires. I've got most of the story worked out. If you want to tackle the theme melody I'll send it to you with a storyboard when it's finished.

@StaticRomance: I give you the same advice I just gave the other two, compose something for TToK and then I'll truly know if you'll be right for this project.

At everyone, I'm looking for music on the web to give examples of what kinds of things I'm looking for. I'll post links here with descriptions of what I like about them and what I don't. I hope it will be helpful without boxing in your creativity.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Razzorman on March 19, 2010, 15:06:06
Alright. To avoid confusion and wasting time, I think we should agree on who makes what.
I'd like to make something for the treetop labyrinth looking area, but I'd be fine with making some cave music too.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on March 20, 2010, 03:33:22
OK, Razzorman gets the canopy. The main section of the canopy will be cut off from the forest floor. It will play somewhat like a maze. I may or may not use the bird objects, it'll depend on how lighthearted the music is. (I think the birds are a bit silly looking, and their sizes compared to Juni are comical.)

I want someone to step forward and compose the theme. This is how I want to approach it:
1.)A melody is created. It'll help if it can stand on it's own. Example (http://ccmixter.org/files/oldDog/17322).
2.)Then that melody is used to construct one or two other songs for the level. Example (http://ccmixter.org/files/echoed/23408). (I think this sample track is too forward. The percussion is too loud.)
3.)A crescendo version is created as a lead in to the final boss fight. Example (http://ccmixter.org/files/echoed/24301). No that isn't based on the original song. It shows the feel I want. This is one track that can come forward and fill the soundscape.
I want to use the theme or one of it's variation in the City.
Spoiler: Don't read if you're not collaborating (click to show/hide)
Whoever makes this doesn't need to worry about the variations on the theme. That will come later and not necessarily by you. (Examples 1 and 2 are by different artists.) But, step 1 needs completion so we can decide what areas to make variations for.

Thanks

Something like this would be perfect for the ice caverns, Example (http://ccmixter.org/files/oldDog/10226). It's a little too forward and possibly a little too fast, but it would work as is.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on April 24, 2010, 13:27:15
This bump is to let everyone know I've been working on this steadily. Also I want to issue a new musical challenge. The game is going to open with something like a dream sequence. It's going to have a very Mario feel to it. There wont be any text or challenge (other than a few jumps.) It'll start out very happy and get progressively sinister. It'll end abruptly.

Musically, I want the same effect. The tricky part is having the music change as the player progresses. The timing will vary from person to person. Also, if a player heads backwards for some reason, the music should cheer up. I was thinking we might be able to create a base rhythm that plays as the music track and then put happy, tense, and sinister overlays in an Ambi slot. This may not work at all, because there's no way to control the timing of the Ambi tracks. The overlaying tracks would have to work with the base track on beat, off beat, and everywhere in between.

So, if someone is intrigued by this prospect, even someone I've not heard from yet, then please volunteer to do this. I also want to add that the music can be as forward as it needs to be, since this section is of low challenge and is all about the sights and sounds. It can have a sound all of it's own just as it has a look that varys dramatically from the rest of the game.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Razzorman on May 30, 2010, 02:01:24
Bump to let you know I haven't been working on this steadily. I've only been able to create around 2½ minutes of music for the canopy. :oops:
Sorry for being inactive for so long. I'm going to get my stuff together and try to work on this less sporadically than before though.

I'm sorry if I've seemed uninterested or something.

Quote from: egomassive on April 24, 2010, 13:27:15
Musically, I want the same effect. The tricky part is having the music change as the player progresses. The timing will vary from person to person. Also, if a player heads backwards for some reason, the music should cheer up. I was thinking we might be able to create a base rhythm that plays as the music track and then put happy, tense, and sinister overlays in an Ambi slot. This may not work at all, because there's no way to control the timing of the Ambi tracks. The overlaying tracks would have to work with the base track on beat, off beat, and everywhere in between.
That could be a little bit tricky to produce. I've barely touched on chiptunes (even though I have a ton of 8-bit samples :P), but unless somebody else wants to do it, I'll give it a try.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on May 30, 2010, 07:56:10
It would be awesome if you could work on the dream sequence Razzorman. I haven't been getting much participation from this community, so I'm considering going to outside forums for collaborators. The dream sequence musician though would almost have to be a Nifforumite to understand the game mechanics.

I did sidetrack myself with a small level during May, but I'll be back on this project soon. I finally worked out the complete story board, world map, and game logic. (Since there is such a limited amount of flags to work with, I have to make a lot of critical design decisions beforehand.) There are some story details to work out, but the planning is complete. Tilesets are about half finished, maybe a third finished. I've planned to go all out with custom tilesets from the beginning.

I'm glad I made Shipwrecked in May, which was a test game for animated sequences. People reacted badly to the glitchy behavior of them. It can be done convincingly, but not to the magnitude seen in that level. Also, they exclude the small but present KSDS community.

Edit June 11, 2010: Added new screen shots. First is an early look at the frozen area. Second is the current appearance of the burrows.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Stinktier on July 29, 2010, 14:51:21
Quote from: Razzorman on March 19, 2010, 15:06:06
Alright. To avoid confusion and wasting time, I think we should agree on who makes what.
I'd like to make something for the treetop labyrinth looking area, but I'd be fine with making some cave music too.

Good point!

Any update on what kind of areas are going to be included so? Some idea that's been added or dumped since the original post?

===

I think i can cut it for the city-like environments, especially the sewers, but instead of referring to some online file that feels irrelevant (most music i've done is part of different bands or web show jingles or such, not appropriate). Instead, i'll try to compose a draft and see if you think i have the potential. I'll be right back as soon as possible. :)
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on July 30, 2010, 02:37:08
All the areas mentioned in the original post will still be included. Areas I haven't mentioned are the Moon, Juni's homeland (which is similar to "Not Desert" Tileset), a lab, and the sea floor. The temples I mentioned will have elemental themes; fire, wind, water/ice, and Earth.

I'll send you a PM with tons of info if you want it.

So far, only the canopy and dream sequence are claimed by a musician.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Stinktier on July 30, 2010, 20:19:08
Please go ahead, the more info i have, the more likely it is that it can put out something useful. :)
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Stinktier on July 31, 2010, 18:42:14
This is going to be a massive level, that's absolutely clear. Lots of varied places and therefore the need of pretty many background scores.

For any musician and/or composer who feels a bit intimidated to jump on the train, here's a few general tips for making music for this level:

General tips on using reverb:
A good way, both in game bgms and movie scores, is to work with subtle amounts of reverb to place the song where it belongs, namely not in the centre of focus. You want to avoid cheap linear and semi-linear reverbs as they sound horrible in almost every context. Spring and plate reverbs can be hard to put to good use for this, too, if not handled carefully. Aim for impulse reverbs or other physical modelling reverbs if you have CPU and economy for it. There are reverbs dedicated to put on the master channel in your DAW environment.
Depending on if the scene is outdoors/indoors, you might want to fiddle around a bit with the early reflections/reverb tail mix ratio. And remember, don't forget to be subtle when working on the master channel.

Making percussion, drums and other attention grabbing sounds have less impact (a few ways to handle it):
-first, see if you can reduce the amount of notes played.
-diminish the percussive sounds relevance by cutting them thinner with an equalizer
-if the base material is too punchy, and you don't want to alter it with eq, you can always flatten sounds a good bit with your favourite compressor by adjusting attack and release values (which is quite the opposite what you normally do with a compressor, if you are making, for example, rock music or house).
-once again, reverbs, in the right amount, puts drums on a distance.

Other tips:
-Don't overuse pan effects. In fact, don't aim for too much effects at all, as they possibly can steal attention from the game too much.
-Aim for a few chords, ambience or melody lines that aren't too messy, but still can be recognized upon hearing a second time.
-Sounds that stick out of the picture have a tendency to grab attention. This is background music, therefore, this is probably undesireable.
-effects which emulates spatial environments can be of good use as an addition, especially if all else fails for some reason but you still feel the music in itself is right.

EDIT: Feel free to come up with more tips and i put them here, or ask me if anything is unclear regarding this post.

Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Stinktier on July 31, 2010, 18:44:59
As for the intro dream score, i'm no good at 80s video game retroism, but i'm almost sure i could make a few ambient lines to make an already existing mario-esque bgm get creepy. it is kind of my thing to do creepy sounding synth sounds.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: egomassive on July 31, 2010, 19:04:39
Razzorman said he'd work on the dream sequence. That doesn't have to be 8-bit. The 8-bit music I want is for something else, and it has very little to do with the main story. It's one of the few things I wont talk about publicly.

Stinktier has volunteered to do the sewers, grave yard, and lab music for starters. And, I'm glad to have him on board. I barely even understand what he said 2 posts ago which exemplifies that it was a good idea to ask for help with music.

@Stinktier: Watch the double posting. If you're the last to post in a thread and you want to add something, use the edit or modify features. I believe it's OK to double post if it's been a week or more since your last post, but bumping for the sake of bumping is severely frowned on here. Just wanted you to know. :)

Edit: I was not implying you were bumping for the sake of bumping.
Title: Re: musician wanted for KS level
Post by: Stinktier on July 31, 2010, 19:40:54
Ah, I'm sorry, it wasn't meant that way. I simply wanted to keep the different kinds of info in separate posts, but now I see how this can be inpractical and annoying for other forum users. Will avoid it in the future. And thanks for letting me know. :)

EDIT: (see, I'm learning!) As for the game intro music (once again), I forgot to clarify that my proposal in the previous post wasn't meant to claim Razzorman's working field, but more to let him know that I am open to cooperate and contribute, should that be needed or desired from himself.