Nifflas' Support Forum

Released Games => Knytt Stories => Topic started by: Hmpf on February 20, 2010, 21:07:33

Title: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Hmpf on February 20, 2010, 21:07:33
I started writing this in another thread (http://"http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=2775.0") but realised it was going very far off topic, so decided to make a new thread for it:

As I said, I find many popular levels unplayably hard; that is, levels that other people can play just fine and enjoy are too hard for me. And, for me, those levels do have too many enemies (and/or traps) between savepoints.

Some examples: The Core, Dark Sky of Wish Mountain, The Explore Challenge, Frozen Mountain (I can't even get past the very first screen with an enemy), Going Left, Gustav's Daughter, Harvest, Monocromatica Grotta, The Oubliette, Spiral, Teenhmifnoeafgil... and those are just ones I've downloaded & tried but haven't deleted yet.

I <3 you. Come, join me in the League of Crap Players (current membership: 1). :-)

Though I think that out of that list, Dark Sky of Wish Mountain and the Oubliette are actually manageable - *just*. I was able to beat those when I was still a lot more crap at playing KS than I am now, and found them comparable in difficulty to a hard Nifflas level - say, A Strange Dream on "Hard" setting, or An Underwater Adventure. (There's a difference, to me, between a hard Nifflas level and many other 'hard' levels - Nifflas' levels always seem fair, somehow, and tend to teach you as you go. They don't often cause me to ragequit.) The Core and Harvest I managed with minor cheating, and Gustav's Daughter I eventually managed with a *lot* of time and patience. The Explore Challenge I've given up on (and deleted), and Frozen Mountain I'm cheating on *mercilessly*, because there's just no way I could manage it otherwise. It has some rather pretty areas, which is the only reason I'm even still playing it (or trying to play it) occasionally.

The other levels you listed I haven't dared to try yet.

It's always incredibly frustrating to find levels that are really pretty (for example: The Life Ruby; or most of the output of Farik) but - for me - unbeatable... *sigh*

If it's any consolation, though: you almost inevitably get better if you keep playing KS. I still don't think I'll ever reach the skill level of some of the posters on this forum, but I definitely see a marked improvement in some areas of my KS skills, even though I never consciously set out to practice those. I recently beat (without cheating!) the incredibly hard (to me) Ascension by Farik, for example, and I certainly wouldn't have been able to do that even half a year ago. (Still wasn't exactly easy now...)

So, basically, don't delete those levels. Keep them around, and try them again from time to time, and at some point you may be surprised to discover that some of them have suddenly turned beatable.

ETA: Err, just to clarify: of course, anybody else is welcome to the League, too! ;-)

And also: please, make more easy levels, level makers! I suspect there are quite a few of 'closeted' Crap Players around, and we'd all be grateful to find more stuff to play that doesn't frustrate us at every corner... :-)

ETA2: Maybe we should turn this into a recs thread for easy levels... I don't have the time now, though, so somebody else start, please...


Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: the Jack on February 21, 2010, 03:22:39
JOINED. ::points at shiny new sig::

Oubliette I found a 'Let's Play' video for on YouTube, that was well enough done to satisfy my interest in experiencing the level, albeit vicariously. (Ditto Monocromatica Grotta, actually, & a couple others as well. YouTube has a nice selection of LPKS videos from various users -- and of course some that are crap, from other users -- which are also handy for walkthrough purposes, to help me figure out one point I'm stuck on so I can get to the rest of a level; and of course for showcasing Don't Eat the Mushroom for people our age* who played the games it references as kids & would thus appreciate it, but either aren't good enough at platformers [anymore] to make the jumps or just aren't interested in installing KS.) I haven't given up entirely on DSoWM -- yet -- but I'm taking a break from beating my head against it. (Instead I'm beating it against A Knytt in Time. (http://www.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/9b0990e46c.gif))

I know exactly what you mean about getting better at the skill-jumps & such -- to again use DEtM as an example, when I first started playing KS levels I found jumps on two screens (and I know you know which two) almost impossible, and only the palpable awesmoeness of the level kept me from giving up in despair. (I hadn't yet discovered the options of either using the editor or watching LP vids.) Many, many tries later I finally finished the level. It may have taken me longer to get the best ending than anyone else who played it ever, though. Anyway, my point was, I'm now actually kinda good at wall-jumps! My experience playing Fancy Pants Adventure** (1 & 2) a year or two ago no doubt helps there.

I don't delete most of the levels I'm finding too hard for me, actually -- if they're any good -- because I figure if nothing else I can look at them in the editor to learn new things about what can be done, level-design-wise. And, also, in hopes that one day I might manage to improve enough to get past whatever stumbling block I'm saved at... or, failing that, skip through in the editor.

You might consider giving The Explore Challenge another go, btw. I haven't peeked in the editor to check, but I think I'm almost through the difficult screens required for the optimal ending. I just keep going back to it when I'm feeling my robot-laser Zen-est. Going back to levels later is working for me more and more -- I recently finally finished This Level Is Unfinished, which was fun and cute and only a little annoying now that I've honed my platforming skillz some.

WRT Gustav's Daughter, OTOH, though the conceit of the quasi-isometric graphics is interesting in itself, I found the storyline too forced to motivate me to go on.

There was one level that I actually just modified a couple of tiles (exactly 2, in fact) because I couldn't make the two pixel-perfection-required jumps that bottlenecked the level in my copy of the level. I know I marked the file as edited, since I expected to forget which level I'd done it to, and sure enough I don't remember which one it was. Honestly, I almost hate levels with nearly-impossible jumps more than levels with monsters I just can't get past without bursting into steam; did anyone ever find the excruciatingly exact timing required by Dragon's Lair (http://mobilegames.about.com/od/gamereviews/gr/grDragonsLair.htm) (yes, it's been ported to the iPhone) the fun part of that game? Seriously, dying 15 times in a row because I fail to jump from the one possible safe pixel (and the jump requires a running start) is just. not. fun. Jumps like that are bad enough in levels that are only semi-linear; if that's the only way through, I wonder sometimes why the level designer didn't just put a no-climb invisible wall up halfway across the liquid hazard... and a 'win'-shift to a cutscene that's just the text "HA HA YOU LOSE" or something to that effect. Save them and me both a lot of time.

To be fair, there are a lot -- seriously, a lot -- of good KS levels that even Crap Players like us can win. The existence of the KS level editor, and this thriving community of player-designers, has probably at least tripled the number of platform-style 'games' (if we're counting KS levels as individual games) available for players like us who prefer exploration focus with maybe a modest amount of challenge. I always loved platformers, starting with good old Super Mario Bros... but even back when I was a kid with much, much better reflexes, I always felt platformers would be more fun with more exploration and less dying.

You've already made a good start on level recs for players like us, of course, in your several LJ posts of recs. C&Ping them here would be a good start.

In the meantime -- and I'm trying to avoid duplicating the recs I know you did (including for your own levels) -- here are some recs to kick things off:


More once I have your recs in front of me, Hmpf, so as to avoid duplication. Though... iirc you only annotated some of your recs, so we could divvy those up for saying stuff about in the Official LoCP Recs List....

(Are you sure we shouldn't make a separate topic for 'Level Recs from the League of Crap Players'?)


*I seem to remember seeing you say somewhere you're in your 30s...? I am, also. I first fell in love with level-editing games with Lode Runner, and even more so Stuart Smith's Adventure Construction Set, for the Apple II way back in the early-to-mid-'80s. Heh, I even made a platform-style game with ACS despite the fact its gameplay engine was set up for top-down.

**If you haven't played FPA yet, RUN DON'T WALK here (http://armorgames.com/play/553/the-fancy-pants-adventure-world-2); you'll love it, if your KS level preferences & fondness for the Nevermore series are any indication. Yes, that link goes to World 2, which is the sequel. Go ahead & play it first; it's more polished & more fun.


edited because I realised I forgot the second asterisk*
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: AClockworkLemon on February 21, 2010, 04:18:40
Mind if I join the League of Almost-but-not-quite crap players. I would have been 100% crap, but I have been practicing :]
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: the Jack on February 21, 2010, 17:56:19
Okay, no, a few more recs -- though I'm still wondering if there shouldn't be a separate thread for LoCP Recs, and this one for ...general discussion & membership?

Anyway. GO PLAY THESE:

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
(spoilered for length only)

Probably some of these are going to duplicate Hmpf's recs, but I was just in a level-recommending frame of mind. (Also the sun came up and so it's again time to put aside playing the darker levels until tonight.)
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Hmpf on February 21, 2010, 22:59:25
Wow, the Jack, you're like a lean, mean posting machine! :D Wish I had time to respond with a few recs of my own, but boring Real Life stuff (well, I admit, and a bit of level building) interfered, today.

Everybody who feels rather a bit too 'challenged' by popular and much-recommended levels is free to join, of course! The more the merrier!

So, welcome, AClockworkLemon and the Jack!

I should probably change my sig now, too... *g*
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: AClockworkLemon on February 22, 2010, 08:14:04
:awsum:
(http://i47.tinypic.com/2s626p0.png)
Code: [Select]
[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/2s626p0.png[/IMG]just a bit of fun...
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: pumpkin on February 22, 2010, 19:41:09
I gotta join, because I've been playing since 2008, and i still can't even finish A Strange Dream! This is definitely a league I'll like being in!
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Hmpf on February 22, 2010, 20:41:37
Welcome, pumpkin. And thanksl, AClockworkLemon! :-)
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: AClockworkLemon on February 28, 2010, 10:58:56
Ok, I wish to make a serious (http://e.deviantart.net/emoticons/p/plusfav.gif)

Oil (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=1235.0), by Diago. This is [environmental], and it is truly BEAUTIFUL. It would have to be my favorite KS level ever. You will only die a few times, and only really at the begging whilst you are getting used to it. I demand (well, not really) that you give it a go!
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Headgrinder on March 06, 2010, 17:32:49
Ah Ha!  I've finally found my home on the Knytts Stories forums.

Thanks Hmpf for recommending this thread to me.  Real life is especially busy in my current stage of life, so I won't be posting often, but I look forward to playing any games the LCP would recommend.  Myself, I'm working on a large plot driven easy level, but I'm looking forward to any easy small competitions anyone would like to have so as to better get my feet wet.

Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: GrayFace on March 10, 2010, 18:26:45
"Going Left" shouldn't be in the list in the first post IMO. It's definitely Lunatic.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on March 10, 2010, 22:43:14
I'm gonna join you guys in spirit, but not add the banner, since I'm not really a crap player (I can breeze through most Normal-Hard levels), but I think there should be more Easy levels out there that focus on the immersive experience, rather than Lunatic levels that focus on hair-pulling frustration. In short, when I play KS, I like levels that remind me of why I liked Knytt, instead of levels that remind me of why I hate 2D platformer levels where every enemy fires nukes.

On that note, I'm gonna recommend a few levels to those who prefer levels where you needn't walk around every corner expecting to die and like to stop and smell...err, look at the roses.

Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: bulbapuck on March 10, 2010, 23:19:41
I joined, great league! I feel right at home :D

I'm very surprised nobody has posted what could very well be the best, and probably most famous enviromental level.

Don't Eat the Mushroom by UncleSporky (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/UncleSporky%20-%20Don%27t%20Eat%20the%20Mushroom.knytt.bin)

If you haven't played this level yet, play it! 8)
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Aptequar on March 11, 2010, 01:00:37
I'd like to nominate myself for this. :P

I'm relatively good at jumping and things, the part where I fall down is in reflex based challenges. The fireflower is an instant stopping point for me, for example. I hate those things.

I definitely agree with PYP that the focus in KS should be on atmosphere, and that there is a tendency to make harder levels. Nifflas made an interesting point on that in his lecture - I much subscribe to the same view.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: pumpkin on March 11, 2010, 01:17:37
I joined, great league! I feel right at home :D

I'm very surprised nobody has posted what could very well be the best, and probably most famous enviromental level.

Don't Eat the Mushroom by UncleSporky (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/UncleSporky%20-%20Don%27t%20Eat%20the%20Mushroom.knytt.bin)

If you haven't played this level yet, play it! 8)

bulbapuck, I love you. I'd totally forgotten about that level, and it kicks the most ass in the most ways possible. Thank you for reminding me of it!
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: the Jack on March 11, 2010, 01:35:46
@Headgrinder: Welcome! The hints you've been dropping about your level-in-progress have certainly piqued my interest -- feel free to ask if there's anything you need a hand with.

"Going Left" shouldn't be in the list in the first post IMO. It's definitely Lunatic.

@GrayFace: The levels Hmpf quoted my list of in the first post are all good, popular, interesting levels that I wasn't able to play due to their being beyond my platforming ability and/or reflexes. If "Going Left" is indeed Lunatic, that doesn't really matter for LoCP purposes, as we're generally no more able to play a Very Hard or even Hard level than we are a Lunatic one... and even some Normal levels lead us to ragequit after racking up a couple dozen deaths in just a few minutes.

@PYP: Thanks for the recs, and especially for the links! I've played about half of those, but that still leaves several new levels for me to check out. Yay!

@Bulbapuck: Welcome to you too! DEtM is a great level, one of my favourites, and one of the first levels I played... but it does have two different fairly hard jumps in it, hard enough that it was only the high degree of enjoyment I'd been getting from the rest of the level that kept me trying for the 10-20 minutes (seriously) it took me to get past each one. And since there isn't another way around those two jumps, unfortunately "Don't Eat the Mushroom" can't get the official LoCP seal of approval. Happily, though, ProtonJonSA over at YouTube did an excellent three-part (to showcase all the endings) Let's-Play video series for DEtM, so even the crappest players can enjoy the full experience. I actually made a friend of mine download KS just so she could play DEtM, but for both my fiancee and my personal assistant, who have no platforming skills at all, watching the LP had to suffice.

@Aptequar: Welcome to you as well... Hopefully this means that your intriguiing-looking levels from the Level Previews forum will be LoCP-safe?

edit: Pumpkin ninja'd me! How could you forget Don't Eat the Mushroom? It has to be one of the single most brilliant KS levels yet made. I  <3 it like crazy (even though one of those two jumps still makes me crazy).
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on March 11, 2010, 02:15:46
@PYP: Thanks for the recs, and especially for the links! I've played about half of those, but that still leaves several new levels for me to check out. Yay!
Thanks! :D If you like levels like those, you might want to check out the levels I've made; Darkness is Easy and Outer Reaches is Environmental.

...that and they've seen even less action than I have... >.>;
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: bulbapuck on March 11, 2010, 12:41:52
@Bulbapuck: Welcome to you too! DEtM is a great level, one of my favourites, and one of the first levels I played... but it does have two different fairly hard jumps in it, hard enough that it was only the high degree of enjoyment I'd been getting from the rest of the level that kept me trying for the 10-20 minutes (seriously) it took me to get past each one. And since there isn't another way around those two jumps, unfortunately "Don't Eat the Mushroom" can't get the official LoCP seal of approval. Happily, though, ProtonJonSA over at YouTube did an excellent three-part (to showcase all the endings) Let's-Play video series for DEtM, so even the crappest players can enjoy the full experience. I actually made a friend of mine download KS just so she could play DEtM, but for both my fiancee and my personal assistant, who have no platforming skills at all, watching the LP had to suffice.
The level is worth those 10-20 minutes :P2 Besides, people should at least play the beginning themselves to get the full experience.
But as I'm a fan of ProtonJonSA myself I do recommend those videos if you don't get through the level.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: GrayFace on March 11, 2010, 14:24:04
Don't forget another most famous environmental level - Gaia!

I definitely agree with PYP that the focus in KS should be on atmosphere, and that there is a tendency to make harder levels. Nifflas made an interesting point on that in his lecture - I much subscribe to the same view.
Where can I find the lecture?

I agree to that too. I love explorational levels like the original ones by Nifflas, with moderate difficulty.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Aptequar on March 11, 2010, 15:54:05
Nifflas' lecture. (http://vimeo.com/9440930)

@the Jack: I'll try my best. Difficulty is very subjective. Although I'll be flexible - if people say it's too hard I'll modify it, definitely. Making it open to as many players as possible is very important.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: AClockworkLemon on March 12, 2010, 07:03:48
Thanks! :D If you like levels like those, you might want to check out the levels I've made; Darkness is Easy and Outer Reaches is Environmental.

...that and they've seen even less action than I have... >.>;

Well, i'm working on Outer reaches for Knytt Environment (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=2805.0), hopefully that will raise awareness =)[/plug]
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Yukabacera on March 25, 2010, 13:32:49
By this DECREE (from now on known as DOCUMENT), the signer, YUKABACERA (from now on known as SIGNER), is to join the LEAGUE OF CRAP PLAYERS (from now on known as GROUP). If the SIGNER is from any reason expelled or rejected for membership inside the GROUP, this DOCUMENT is to be shown to the HMPF (from now on known as HEAD OF GROUP) so the SIGNER's membership can be renewed.

Signed, =|=

tl;dr : I joined.

=|=
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: StraightFlame on March 27, 2010, 10:38:56
Can i be a (http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/4571/ubd7235.png), too?

Wait a sec, guess i can.
Spoiler: Yay imma member! (click to show/hide)
Moddin my sig right away!
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: StraightFlame on March 27, 2010, 20:52:35
Update on the codes for the LoCP banners!


Hope you like them. Especially the third  X-P fourth one.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: StraightFlame on March 30, 2010, 18:34:06
Anyways, i don't wanna be a member anymore. Bye!  :sad:
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on March 31, 2010, 00:09:52
...wow, you went from wanting to be a member to compiling banners to leaving, all within 3 days? That's something right there.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Headgrinder on March 31, 2010, 03:23:38
I take it was the lack of snazzy response... or response at all.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: AClockworkLemon on March 31, 2010, 09:57:04
The "lite" version shown in straightflame's post was a remix of the original that the Jack asked me to make. If anyone else wants different colours, PM me
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Yukabacera on March 31, 2010, 10:34:23
@Pick Yer Poison: He's running out of userbar space. I can tell it. I mean, look at my ridiculous signature.

=|=
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: GrayFace on April 04, 2010, 13:57:02
I just played dessgeega - Fossil. It's a very creative level that perfectly fits LoCP.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Yukabacera on April 04, 2010, 16:40:35
Fossil was quite...interesting, if you ask me. Really strange but enjoyable concept.

Edit by THA EDITOR:
Yay, TOTPD.

=|=
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Rock rabbit on April 04, 2010, 17:56:53
._. I'd like to join.
I think I'm not that bad at playing, but still, I get pretty much frustrated, when I die more than three times on the same place. Also, I hate it when I have to wait for a perfect timing or when I have to do a super precise jumping. I pretty much ragequit those levels and delete them. Or I cheat >w>;
mmmmmm...yeah~ I think I'm pretty much a crap player XD
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: StraightFlame on April 09, 2010, 14:50:43
I'd like 2 rejoin. I rly want it, again, and i will not leave anymore. Ever.
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: Cloudy Deity on May 28, 2010, 23:49:01
Can I please join too? Mostly 'cause I like the type of levels described in the first post the most  C)
And I'm not specially good either  :P2 I prefer atmospheric, pretty and plot-involving levels above anything else.
Personally I think it's to bad that Carn's trilogy ("The end of Paradise, Escape from Pain & Journey through Bliss) were as hard as they were, 'cause the plot and feeling they had seemed really nice  :^^:
Title: Re: Join the League of Crap Players! ;-)
Post by: FlamingBurgerKing on May 31, 2011, 20:00:23
Joined!