Nifflas' Support Forum

Level Editing Support => Knytt Stories Level Previews => Topic started by: Hmpf on July 07, 2009, 03:22:23

Title: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 07, 2009, 03:22:23
So... this is my very first level, and it's going to be 99% environmental, although the section I'm posting here today as a preview is mildly - very mildly - challenge-like. It's also, hopefully, going to be huge. I currently have about 60 'walkable' screens built - not all of them included in the preview - and I've hardly scratched the surface of what I want to do with this level.

There may or may not be plot, but I do have a story in mind to explain the world I'm building. How much of that background story is actually going to show up in the level is still undecided, though.

This is going to be a homage to Knytt Stories as a rain and waterfall simulator ;-), as well as to all the wonderful public tilesets (and their makers, of course.) Incidentally, tileset makers aren't properly credited yet - it won't be possible to fit all of the names on the info image, so I've decided to make a proper credit sequence, but I will only tackle that later, when I've made more of the level itself.

There's no cutscenes yet, and some screens aren't quite what I want to make them. Also, there's a colour issue - I made what I have of the level so far on my notebook, and as of today I'm back on my desktop computer which, as I've just found out, makes a *big* difference in terms of some of the colours - everything that seemed blue and grey on my notebook seems a bit - and in some cases, a lot - off on the desktop. So I may have to rethink some screens, and especially some backgrounds.

The screenshots and the preview version are not very spectacular; the concept for the level is that it begins in a fairly 'mundane' place and gets more visually interesting the further away from home Juni gets. So far I've mostly built a city and its sewers, but we'll leave the sewers soon - and, in fact, even some later parts of the city are going to be quite a bit more interesting than what you can see so far. But I have only sketches of those parts, so far.

I would welcome tips for sources for sound effects and cc-licenced music... I'm going to need both, and don't know how to start searching for them - especially music.

Screenshots are attached.

Edited to remove link: Whoops, I just saw that it's not allowed to post demos here. Apologies.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 07, 2009, 03:23:16
Sounds great.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Evil on July 07, 2009, 03:23:22
2nd screen uber pretty
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 07, 2009, 03:35:14
Thank you. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: googoogjoob on July 07, 2009, 05:35:30
I like these screens. Lots.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pumpkinbot on July 07, 2009, 06:04:05
2nd screen uber pretty
I concur. :shifty: Sounds like awesmoe. That's right, not just awesome, but awesmoe.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 07, 2009, 13:32:35
Just a few more screenshots. I've been playing around with a different sky for the city; and I'm close to finishing the blue brick section of the sewers. Then there's the grey brick section to do (the red brick section is already finished - yes, I'm trying to get as many different types of brick in here as possible ;-)), and then we get to the Lower City, which is going to be... interesting. I hope. And after that, it's the caves, and the inside slopes... (the world's kind of funnel-shaped).
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 07, 2009, 13:42:42
And, just because all the brick stuff is getting a bit dreary, two screens from a later part of the level.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Salmoneous on July 07, 2009, 14:10:11
Looks very nice.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 07, 2009, 23:08:51
This is turning out extremely well.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: bunnrey on July 08, 2009, 00:35:55
I like the last two screenies the best because they use a normal tileset in a way that hasn't been done before.
Looks great! keep it up!  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 10, 2009, 12:59:30
Improvement of a screen already posted (see attachment). This is why I really shouldn't post early drafts...

@ bunnrey: I like using tilesets in a way that goes a bit against the grain, so yeah, expect more of that - I hope - later on in the level. That's one thing I meant when I said that the farther away from the starting point we get, the more visually interesting the level is going to become. Although I have something interesting in mind for some later parts of the city, as well. Or something that I hope will be interesting anyway; not sure yet how practical it will be - I may have to work with shifts there, which will be a bit more boring, although at the moment I'm still aiming for an at least partly climbable structure.)

Question to the experienced, i.e., basically anyone here:

In that new screenshot, the darker columns in the foreground are solid (except for the bits immediately below the grass, as I had to put those on layer 2 so I could put the grass on layer 3 - but they're sloped, so you wouldn't be able to climb them anyway, so the worst that can happen there is someone jumping 'into' them a bit; and I've put invisible blocks in the 'complete' squares of the interior, so the only part that you can jump 'into' are the tips).
The lighter columns in the background are, well, in the background, except for the layer of grass on top, on which you can jump and walk. Do you think that that is confusing?

As for those pesky 'immaterial' tips of the darker columns - I suppose I could try to make an invisible custom object to cover them... another new skill to learn...

Or I could make all the columns, except for the tops, immaterial.

What do you think?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 10, 2009, 14:54:37
A custom object wouldn't be invisible, as their sole purpose is decoration.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Dandelion on July 10, 2009, 21:53:19
Wow, this looks nice! First levels are often disasters, but this looks great! C)p
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 11, 2009, 00:08:31
I'm aspiring to the bunnrey type of first level. (Caverns was a first level, wasn't it?)

Hey, nothing wrong with aiming high, eh? ;-)

I just hope my perfectionism and my ambition to make a *big* level won't mean that it will never be finished. I am fairly persistent, which means this will probably not be given up on, even if it takes a while - but on the downside, 'a while' is occasionally measured in years in Hmpfland.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on July 11, 2009, 00:58:47
I'm aspiring to the bunnrey type of first level. (Caverns was a first level, wasn't it?)

Hey, nothing wrong with aiming high, eh? ;-)

I just hope my perfectionism and my ambition to make a *big* level won't mean that it will never be finished. I am fairly persistent, which means this will probably not be given up on, even if it takes a while - but on the downside, 'a while' is occasionally measured in years in Hmpfland.
Nothing wrong with going for the gold on your first try. That's what I did! ;)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Razzorman on July 11, 2009, 01:15:47
So did I, although I failed miserably. :P
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 16, 2009, 17:44:36
Just because I'm thrilled with what I've made recently, another screenshot. Mind you, it's only half as cool as a picture as it is when you're actually playing the level. See, the 'stars' in the background (which aren't stars, but never mind that now) are *glittering*... but not in the very brilliant way they do when you use the objects from the decoration object bank. They glitter in a very... subtle kind of way.

Also, status report: 63 connected, playable, non-repeating screens now (60 if I can't manage to contact Sinix, because in that case I will have to rebuild three) - not counting the half-finished later parts. The only section of the first part that's still missing is the Lower City, which will be between nine and twelve screens, I think; perhaps slightly larger. I'm thinking about releasing the city and sewers as a sort of small environmental of their own, that you later can overwrite with the complete (or at least, a larger ;-)) version of the level. What do you think?

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 17, 2009, 01:39:22
Improved version, because I can't stop tinkering.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 17, 2009, 14:25:13
This is the last screenshot, I promise. Well, the last screenshot before the first part of the level is posted, that is (I'm going to need beta testers soon! First I need to figure out the flag warp etc. thing, though.)

I'm sorry, I'm posting far too many screenshots, but I'm so excited about what you can do with all the great tilesets out there, I just have to share. I'm a bit like a little kid who's made a present for someone and now can't wait for Christmas to give it to them... I do hope that I'll learn to rein in my screenshot habit a bit in the later parts of the level.

Well. This is the Lower City, or part of it anyway. Rickard Andersson's Hanseatic Town and Sinix's forest tileset... two great tastes that go great together - somewhat surprisingly, considering how different in style the tilesets are! I've had a sort of sketch of this sitting around for a while, but only built a proper screen (well, a couple) today.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on July 17, 2009, 21:12:50
OH MY .......
Sorry for that. I was just overwhelmed by its sheer awesomeness...
Oh, and I could Beta-test, if you need it.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 17, 2009, 21:34:28
OH MY .......
Sorry for that. I was just overwhelmed by its sheer awesomeness...

Thanks! Of course, at least 60% or 70% (ETA: or perhaps even 80%... Hmm... ;-)) of the awesomeness is simply due to the tilesets, which are, well, awesome! :-) I'm like a kid in a candy store going through them, deciding what to combine with what, and what to build with the combination...

Quote
Oh, and I could Beta-test, if you need it.

Yay! I'll contact you when it's ready, okay? I still need to build the rest of the city (and a part of that is going to be tricky), and get the hang of flag warps, but I do think it'll be ready in a couple of weeks.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Bored2death on July 17, 2009, 21:48:52
I'll beta test too, though... I might get busy here soon.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 17, 2009, 21:50:05
Are there beta testers now?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 17, 2009, 22:04:17
Yonowaaru and Bored2Death, so far. Couldn't hurt to have one more, if this is you volunteering, that is... Especially since, being really bad at playing KS, I myself can't really test some areas properly (ceilings etc.; there aren't any challenges in this level, but skilled players may decide they want to climb or jump to places I wouldn't even think of reaching, and find a void or wallswim there).
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 17, 2009, 22:07:55
Yeah. I want to beta test.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 18, 2009, 01:46:21
Welcome aboard, then!

(Completely OT, but I just checked some member info pages here and holy f*****g s**t... I did expect to be older than most here, but maybe not *quite* that much older... *boggles* - Is there anybody here who isn't in their early teens? (ETA: okay, so the first sample I saw was a bit skewed toward the younger side of the board population. *g*) Don't get me wrong - I don't mind the age difference; you may be decades younger than me, but you're clearly experts at level building, so I bow to your authority with respect, and with gratitude for the help you're giving me! But I would feel slightly less bizarre if someone told me that I'm not the only thirtysomething around. ;-))
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 20, 2009, 01:12:18
*gnnnnnnnnnn* *arrrrghlll* Must. Not. Post. Screenshot!!!

...

Oh, heck. This really *is* the last one, I think. Honestly.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: koromi on July 20, 2009, 06:17:56
that would have to be one the best screens i've seen in knytt stories.
i very anxiously await this.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 20, 2009, 14:30:12
that would have to be one the best screens i've seen in knytt stories.
i very anxiously await this.

Thank you!

I'm having some major trouble with making that section work, though, (it'll probably have to be by shifts; there doesn't seem to be a logical, intuitive way of making some parts of it climbable and others 'off limits'), so it will probably take a little longer than I thought to finish.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: koromi on July 22, 2009, 06:16:42
use bank 0, object 11. no-climb does exactly as the name implies, making it so you can't climb even if you have the climb powerup. you have to put it directly over the top of tiles you don't want climbable.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: bunnrey on July 22, 2009, 06:57:36
I'm aspiring to the bunnrey type of first level. (Caverns was a first level, wasn't it?


yes,it was. I am flattered.  :)

could I please beta test? I know that you said you have all the beta testers you need but I really like this level!

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 22, 2009, 15:00:53
use bank 0, object 11. no-climb does exactly as the name implies, making it so you can't climb even if you have the climb powerup. you have to put it directly over the top of tiles you don't want climbable.

Yeah, I know how to make it work, technically - I just don't know how to make it work logically for some areas of the towers to be climbable while others are not, with no clear visual distinction between them. I really think it's probably best to make do without climbing in that area entirely, and possibly without jumping, too, except perhaps down (Juni could meet someone who tells her it's dangerous to jump because it's too slippery, perhaps), and navigate it entirely by shifts via the doors.

I'm aspiring to the bunnrey type of first level. (Caverns was a first level, wasn't it?

yes,it was. I am flattered.  :)

could I please beta test? I know that you said you have all the beta testers you need but I really like this level!

No such thing as too many beta testers! :-) The level isn't ready yet, but I'll contact you - and the others - when it is.

Oh, and this isn't flattery, honestly, but Caverns is one of my top five or so favourite levels. So *I* am flattered that you'd like to beta my level. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 23, 2009, 02:51:09
Approaching 90 playable, non-repeated screens now, if I didn't miscount. The Lower City is turning out rather larger than I expected; it just grows and grows and grows. Also, a (semi)secret area has sprung up unexpectedly tonight. There isn't *much* missing anymore, though, so I expect a final screen count of around 100 for the first part of Falling Water.

Should I still call the first part a 'small' environmental if it's around 100 screens?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on July 23, 2009, 03:33:54
Should I still call the first part a 'small' environmental if it's around 100 screens?
I'd say small or medium would do, depending on what you prefer. But that's my opinion.

Anyway, this looks great! Can't wait to play it! :^^:
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Cosine on July 23, 2009, 17:10:22
On the topic of music: 8bitpeoples (http://www.8bitpeoples.com) has music under a CC license (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/), should you need any chiptunes.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 23, 2009, 17:26:12
On the topic of music: 8bitpeoples (http://www.8bitpeoples.com) has music under a CC license (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/), should you need any chiptunes.

I don't think that would fit the atmosphere of the level, but thanks anyway! :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 24, 2009, 15:24:51
92 screens, now, and four yet to make - plus x, with x<10. So, yeah, it'll end up at nearly exactly 100 screens.

If I give the size as 'small/medium', will that sabotage KS' filtering mechanism? Because in that case I'd decide on one of the two; but if it's possible to indicate that it's sort of on the large side of small and on the small side of medium, I'd prefer to do that.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Cosine on July 24, 2009, 17:27:10
You should just label it Medium, 100 screens isn't very small.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 24, 2009, 20:29:44
A useful note to level creators:

Making something approaching a labyrinth using shifts as the main mode of navigation is hell. Don't try it unless you're a masochist.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 24, 2009, 21:57:53
Wait.. shifting is masochism?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 24, 2009, 22:07:53
Wait.. shifting is masochism?

Not shifting as such... But constructing a labyrinth/several branching and intertwining paths spanning fourteen screens, with up to three shifts per screen? Yep, that's masochism. I've been working on this section for days, and I'm still confused about which shift needs to go where, etc. *g*

ETA: I'm talking about this area:

(http://www.allabouthmpf.com/upper lower city.png)

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 24, 2009, 22:10:07
If I tried something like that, I'd plan out the whole thing on paper, then make the screens, then add the shifts one by one. Just tedious.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 24, 2009, 22:15:22
If I tried something like that, I'd plan out the whole thing on paper, then make the screens, then add the shifts one by one. Just tedious.

Yeah, I tried to plan it on paper, but what I came up with on paper just didn't look nice enough when translated into actual screens. So now I'm trying to find a compromise between workability and aesthetics, by experimenting directly in the editor.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 25, 2009, 00:49:41
Wheeeee! I just figured out how to make a window transparent! I'm learning so many things for this level!

Does that constitute a significant enough alteration of a tileset to necessitate contacting the tileset author to ask him for permission, do you think? I suppose it does, although it does not change the look of the tileset in the slightest; it just allows me to put some of the tiles on layer 6/7 so Juni can run behind them.

I hope Rickard Andersson still has an account on this forum so I may contact him...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 28, 2009, 00:05:24
107 playable, non-repeating screens, and done. :-)

(Still needs some tweaking, so no beta version yet, but all the areas are finished now. Yay!)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 28, 2009, 02:47:25
Yay :D

Btw, what sort of tweaking? Shift tweaking or screen tweaking? ..or bug tweaking?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 28, 2009, 18:05:48
Yay :D

Btw, what sort of tweaking? Shift tweaking or screen tweaking? ..or bug tweaking?

No bugs, no. I've played the whole level through several times and it seems to work fine. (And, for an inept player like me, who manages to fall into every damn waterhole she herself created(!), it offers some 20-30 minutes of playing time, yay!)

I still need to streamline the shift/warp situation you guys gave me advice for a while ago; and do some minor screen tweaking - choosing more appropriate sprites for a few screens, replacing some windows, that kind of thing.

Or, if it turns out the forum consensus is that I absolutely need Rickard Andersson's permission to make a window of his tileset transparent, and if I can't find a way to contact him, then I need to fundamentally restructure several screens. In that case it will be a little longer before I can send this off to you guys.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: BlackM.1 on July 28, 2009, 20:32:36
Wow, I love that you are using one of my tilesets [2nd screen plants]
I am glad it being used in a level :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 29, 2009, 00:23:03
Wow, I love that you are using one of my tilesets [2nd screen plants]
I am glad it being used in a level :)

Well, they're great plants! I may actually use them again later, because I think they make a lot of sense as cave plants, and we're going to get to the caves underneath the city later...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 31, 2009, 03:19:34
I sort-of-finished the beta version today! ('Sort of' because I already thought of something else I want to add in the final version. *g*)

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on July 31, 2009, 03:24:20
Well, if this "thing" in the final version doesn't appear in the beta version, then the betas are complete.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 31, 2009, 03:40:56
Well, if this "thing" in the final version doesn't appear in the beta version, then the betas are complete.

Errrm... I seem to be having my dumb day/night (see my post in Bored2Death's warp tutorial thread for more evidence of that *g*) - but I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean 'incomplete', perhaps? If so, then yes, in a way - but what I'm going to add is a very minor feature of one particular screen (the screen itself already exists, I'm just going to add a layer in parts), which is unlikely to affect the level at large. 99.8% of the level are perfectly testable now. And that last 0.2 percent I can test thoroughly myself, if necessary, before I release the public version. Or I can have you guys look it over in addition to that, which shouldn't take more than a minute. Anyway, doesn't seem like a reason to withhold the beta version now... I think.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Didriking on August 01, 2009, 11:58:40
Pssst... I think THAT'S what he was saying. X-P

This looks great so far, and I'm looking forward to playing it.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on August 02, 2009, 11:42:18
I'm really sorry, but I can't Beta-test anymore, because I can't access my own PC.
So someone may take over my place for the time being..
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 03, 2009, 22:58:09
I'm really sorry, but I can't Beta-test anymore, because I can't access my own PC.
So someone may take over my place for the time being..

Is this a permanent thing? Because if it's temporary, I don't mind waiting until you could do it again. I'm in no particular hurry with this - I have things like music etc. still to ponder, anyway.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on August 03, 2009, 23:07:22
I'm really sorry, but I can't Beta-test anymore, because I can't access my own PC.
So someone may take over my place for the time being..
Is this a permanent thing? Because if it's temporary, I don't mind waiting until you could do it again. I'm in no particular hurry with this - I have things like music etc. still to ponder, anyway.
If it is a permanent thing, I'd be glad to take over Yonowaaru's slot from him. This level looks great. If there's anything I could help out with, drop me a PM.

As for the music, I have 3 sites that I peruse when I need royalty-free music:
Kevin MacLeod (http://incompetech.com/m/c/royalty-free/)
Audionautix (http://audionautix.com/html/free_music.html)
Newgrounds Audio Portal (http://newgrounds.com/audio)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Bored2death on August 03, 2009, 23:08:17
It doesn't just look great... it is great!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 05, 2009, 01:03:14
It doesn't just look great... it is great!

Thank you! 

And, @ Pick Yer Poison: you're welcome to beta, whether Yonowaaru will get around to it as well or not. As this is my first 'real' level (beyond the simple island hopping of Jumping In the Rain) I think it can't hurt to have it tested quite thoroughly!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on August 08, 2009, 21:15:17
It was temporary, got my computer fixed, but alas, my sound card isn't working right, so, if you have custom music, none of it will reach my ears...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 18, 2009, 23:49:08
@everyone: sorry I disappeared so abruptly, Real Life suddenly and unexpectedly got very busy over the last few weeks.

@Yonowaaru: There's no custom music as of yet (sorting that out is one thing I wanted to do in the last two weeks, but couldn't get around to), so you wouldn't miss anything but ambiance if you tested the level on a computer without a soundcard. I'd be thrilled to have another tester, so if you have the time, feel free to test!

I'm going to PM you to send you a link to the very latest version.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 21, 2009, 14:57:08
Right, I think part 1 is finished now. I'll play it through one more time to make sure I didn't forget to fix anything, though. I'll probably post it in a couple of hours (because I'll only get around to testing it once I've a) washed my hair and b) had a bite to eat).

There is even a little bit of music now; not a lot, though, for reasons I'll explain when I post.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 25, 2009, 22:54:16
Part 2 status report: 24 screens and growing. This will be *huge*...

(Not as funny as the first part, though, I'm afraid. There's simply not enough people around to provide the humour. Caves and forests aren't that funny by themselves. *g*)

ETA: Added two screenshots (both very recent, so subject to change).

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on August 26, 2009, 12:09:36
I like the use of the WADF2 wasteland set,  it's nice.
Also, for more humor, add funny text bubbles and cats!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 26, 2009, 18:26:44
Also, for more humor, add funny text bubbles and cats!

Oh, there will be cats, don't worry! (Gotta get the most out of that purr sound file! :D)

But they're also going to be the main purveyors of useful information in the second part, so there's less opportunity for humour. Much of the cat text will be 'serious'.

Also, I'm not sure how much humour I can get out of them. Much of what was funny in part 1 was situation-based, and in part 2, the cats are practically the only potential source of 'dialogue', and with them, the situation is always basically the same: you pet them, and they give you a bit of dialogue.

The second part will be nice to look at, however, and there'll be lots of area to explore... I built an underground garden that looks quite nice, yesterday.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 27, 2009, 02:41:33
Part 2 progress report:

Screen count: 40; still only a tiny percentage of the area I intend to build

Cat count: 2 so far. *g*

Attached: screenshot of confusing underground gardens.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on August 27, 2009, 04:59:49
Attached: screenshot of confusing underground gardens.
Cool. Can't wait for this to come out! :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on August 27, 2009, 05:07:11
Attached: screenshot of confusing underground gardens.
Cool. Can't wait for this to come out! :D
Seconded. :) And I know this is rather early, but I would love to beta test again. I'm aiming to secure a spot early on. ;)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 28, 2009, 03:06:22
@ Pick Yer Poison: of course you may beta! :-)

Progress report: 51 screens, no new cats since yesterday.

Also, because I'm weak, screenshots. (Spoilerphobes simply shouldn't visit this thread. *g*)

ETA: Is it wrong to occasionally get ZOMG I LOVE MY OWN SCREENSHOTS!!!11! feelings? It feels kind of... dirty... but I can't help it.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on August 28, 2009, 04:16:01
@ Pick Yer Poison: of course you may beta! :-)
:D
ETA: Is it wrong to occasionally get ZOMG I LOVE MY OWN SCREENSHOTS!!!11! feelings? It feels kind of... dirty... but I can't help it.
No, that's quite fine. I personally think that if you dislike the screens you make for your own level, you're making them wrong. ;)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on August 28, 2009, 04:52:48
No, that's quite fine. I personally think that if you dislike the screens you make for your own level, you're making them wrong. ;)
You are your own worst critic.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on August 28, 2009, 05:40:49
No, that's quite fine. I personally think that if you dislike the screens you make for your own level, you're making them wrong. ;)
You are your own worst critic.
True. I'll rephrase that, then: If you like the screens you make for your level, you're making them right. [/offtopic]
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 28, 2009, 14:20:55
It's quite odd, with me and creativity: I am a perfectionist, so I tend to work really hard on whatever I do, and find lots of faults while I do. But when I'm done with something, even if I still see flaws, I usually love it. Or rather, the point where I feel that I love it despite some remaining flaws is usually the point where I consider a piece of work 'done'. (Of course, nothing is ever really done.)

I know this is somewhat unusual, because a lot of creative people seem to always hate the results of their work.

Anyway... level making is different from the other things I do, like writing, and making jewellery, in that it feels effortless - like I'm doing it in a trance and then suddenly, when I wake, find it done, and am amazed by the results. So sometimes I feel like I haven't worked hard enough, or consciously enough, to love the results so much... *g*

(As always, a lot of the credit really belongs to the tileset designers, of course. I'm just combining their stuff...)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Feline Monstrosity on August 28, 2009, 15:23:10
Wow, I'm exactly the same when making a piece of music!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 31, 2009, 22:05:09
Progress Report:

No new screens since last time, BUT: I finally figured out my world's history, which is a huge step forward. Now all I have to do is find a way to tell that history using only cats... *g*

(Did I mention this is actually a science fiction level? I think I didn't...)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on September 01, 2009, 08:17:43
It seemed so. I like Sci-Fi, btw...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 04, 2009, 16:37:42
It seemed so. I like Sci-Fi, btw...

Okay, now I'm curious... what made it seem like sf to you? Because I didn't think it would have been discernible from part one alone...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on September 06, 2009, 13:48:58
All the stuff was a bit weird, like the labyrinth house  and high towers, which made is seem kinda weird to me, but since you said it was gonna be Sci-Fi, I figured that that must be why those things are there...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 06, 2009, 16:41:43
Ah, okay. I figured most people would categorise it as fantasy rather than sf, that's why I was a bit surprised. There was definitely some inspiration, on my side, from the fantasy subgenre of stories about weird cities (John M. Harrison's Viriconium is the most recent example I read.)

In my experience, the public perception of the genres is: Fantasy = elves and wizards, and general weirdness, often with a vaguely medieval flair; sf = rocketships, robots and aliens.

(And yes, when I said FW is sf I was thinking of the latter definition... but how that fits together with the so far not-at-all-sf-like look of the City, well... you'll have to wait for part two for that! *g*)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Aptequar on September 07, 2009, 19:05:05
The way you use those tilesets is so inspired - creating a brand new look from existing stuff - incredible. I love it, and I'm on my toes waiting to play it.

(Not actually on my toes, otherwise I'd fall on to my laptop.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 08, 2009, 02:23:49
The way you use those tilesets is so inspired - creating a brand new look from existing stuff - incredible.

Thank you! Is this a veiled comment on the discussion I had with minmay recently? ;-)

But, seriously - I think this is my favourite bit of feedback so far! It's lovely to hear that you think I pulled off exactly the thing I was going for. Though, to be fair, I'm using some tilesets in a very conventional way, too. But, yeah, I am trying quite consciously to find interesting juxtapositions and uses for tilesets we know well.

To a significant degree this level is going to be a declaration of love to KS tileset makers and the awesome materials they are making available to us.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 09, 2009, 04:24:03
Status report: part two has 60 playable, unique screens now, and four cats.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Salmoneous on September 09, 2009, 07:41:40
When all parts are finished you could make them into one level.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 09, 2009, 14:30:54
When all parts are finished you could make them into one level.

That's what I'm doing, actually.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 15, 2009, 19:09:36
Need some opinions. How bad an SGE is this:

http://www.allabouthmpf.com/how bad an sge is this.png (http://www.allabouthmpf.com/how bad an sge is this.png)

I really like the look of the craggy/rounded ground covered by flowers and grass, but the grass and flowers don't align perfectly with the ground - some parts kind of float above the ground while others sink into it a bit. Although I am usually a perfectionist I still like the look; but if this is something that would annoy most players, I would try to find another way to decorate that cave. So, I need some opinions on the floaty flowers. How bad are they, in your opinion?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: googoogjoob on September 15, 2009, 19:22:12
As long as the style of that area is consistent, the SGEs shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on September 15, 2009, 20:41:27
I don't see that as an SGE at all, it looks good to me!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on September 16, 2009, 01:32:09
The curvy flowers are hovering.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 16, 2009, 01:36:15
The curvy flowers are hovering.

Well, the convex ones are hovering. The concave ones are sunk in the ground. *g*
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on September 16, 2009, 01:37:46
The concave ones are sunk in the ground. *g*
That may be, but it's not like it forms a laws of the universe anomaly.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 16, 2009, 01:42:29
The concave ones are sunk in the ground. *g*
That may be, but it's not like it forms a laws of the universe anomaly.

Well, no, but it looks kinda bad anyway, because it's not consistent with the way the grass and flowers look on the flat parts of the ground.

I'm just wondering if either - the floaty flowers and the sunk ones - is bad enough to forego that tileset combination altogether. Because, as I said, I like the *overall* effect of the combination rather a lot.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 16, 2009, 02:16:53
Okay, I've played around with this screen concept a bit more and I think this version looks better, although there's still floaty parts (but they appear slightly less floaty, mostly - the right-side one is slightly worse than the left-side one, though).

http://www.allabouthmpf.com/sge slightly improved.png (http://www.allabouthmpf.com/sge slightly improved.png)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on September 16, 2009, 02:23:48
Cool. The SGE does seem less evident.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 16, 2009, 02:25:45
It also looks more appropriate for an underground space. The white plants make more sense than green ones... I think I'll keep this version.

Which means that now I've used my three favourite Lingon tilesets in Falling Water. Hooray! :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 16, 2009, 17:36:23
Two new images at http://www.allabouthmpf.com/falling water.htm (http://www.allabouthmpf.com/falling water.htm).

And I've lost count of screens, but it's somewhere in the low to mid 170s, I think. (Falling Water total, not just part two.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 25, 2009, 20:35:15
Counted all the screens yesterday... the new total is 182 (for parts 1 and 2 combined). About eight or so new this week; still no new cats. But I'm busy writing cat dialogue. Practically all the story has to go in the cat dialogue, which is quite a challenge!

I'm beginning to see how big part 2 of this level will be: probably around 400 screens (built so far: 74). Part 3, which will complete the level, will be somewhere between parts 1 and 2 in size; maybe 200 or so.

Yes, I'll be at this for a while... *g*

I may still decide to split part 2 in two. It would certainly make sense if you look at the size... and it would allow you guys to get your hands on at least the first part of it a bit sooner.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on September 27, 2009, 11:46:37
If you think that's better, you should.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pumpkinbot on September 27, 2009, 23:54:28
If you think that's better, you should.
Agreed. In anything that requires creating (painting, architecture, writing, singing, game-making), always do what you think is best. ;)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 28, 2009, 01:05:08
If you think that's better, you should.
Agreed. In anything that requires creating (painting, architecture, writing, singing, game-making), always do what you think is best. ;)

Oh, it will make no difference for the quality of the end result - it'd just get part of the level out to the audience a bit sooner, is all. Basically, it's a choice between releasing ca. 400 screens ca. March next year, or releasing 200 screens ca. December/January, and another 200 in March. Or whenever. *g*
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pumpkinbot on September 28, 2009, 01:18:35
If you think that's better, you should.
Agreed. In anything that requires creating (painting, architecture, writing, singing, game-making), always do what you think is best. ;)

Oh, it will make no difference for the quality of the end result - it'd just get part of the level out to the audience a bit sooner, is all. Basically, it's a choice between releasing ca. 400 screens ca. March next year, or releasing 200 screens ca. December/January, and another 200 in March. Or whenever. *g*
First, I'd like to say that *g* is a weird emote. X) Second, it's up to you. If you don't know, flip a coin.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 28, 2009, 01:58:18
First, I'd like to say that *g* is a weird emote. X) Second, it's up to you. If you don't know, flip a coin.

I think *g* is just old. *g* and its derivatives (*eg* etc.) were used a lot more when I first became active on the internet, ca. 1998. I guess I'm showing my age when I use it... *g* (To show my age some more: all the anime/manga-derived emoticons that are so common today feel kinda weird to me... Well, most do, anyway. Actually, I rather like this one: o.O *g* But most of the other ones I simply can't decipher.)

As for the release question, that's really something I'm deliberately choosing to keep open until I've built more of the level, because only then will I be able to decide whether it makes sense for the level's story to be split up like that. I wasn't really looking for an answer to the question; just giving an update about the level's progress and my thoughts about it.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on November 30, 2009, 02:12:25
It's been ages since I posted a screenshot...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on November 30, 2009, 04:53:52
And it's been ages since I posted the last screen count, as well.

194, now. Yeah, not a big increase since the 182 of several months ago, but, well, RL is being a bitch.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Xia on November 30, 2009, 05:18:29
This music source was given to me for my level, but I think you would have great use of it also: http://sphericlounge.blogspot.com/
They make ambient music under a creative commons license so just give them credit and you're set.
Downloading from them is tricky though, you have to click on the arrow when it's on the song you want and then it will open a new window. From there, go to File>Save Page As. This will download an mp3 to your computer.

Can't wait for the final product of this, it looks amazing.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: RunMan on November 30, 2009, 07:55:21
Pretty nice screen. I would change gradient anyways.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Comhon on November 30, 2009, 09:56:23
This level seems to be really very nice.
I really looking forward it.
The screenshots are great.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Strange Darkness on November 30, 2009, 10:20:50
I givez 2 thumbz up! :awsum:
another level i havez to wait forz!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on November 30, 2009, 17:32:54
195...

@Xia: thanks for the tip!

@RunMan: yeah, I'm getting pretty sick of the eternal grey myself. Unfortunately I need to stick with it for all external environments in this level, as grey skies and rain is the only weather that ever happens in this world. Strictly speaking "skies" is the wrong word here, but to say more would be spoiling... ;-)

@Comhon, Strange Darkness: thanks, and sorry I'm so slow! I wish I could build this faster... but, RL time issues aside, I also seem to run out of inspiration if I do more than three to six screens in one day. So, I figure, better to build three or six good screens in a day than to quickly build lots of bad screens just to be finished. (I'm still hundreds of screens from being finished, of course.)

I'm really hoping for the Christmas holidays... there should be some more time then.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Comhon on November 30, 2009, 17:44:20
@Comhon, Strange Darkness: thanks, and sorry I'm so slow! I wish I could build this faster... but, RL time issues aside, I also seem to run out of inspiration if I do more than three to six screens in one day. So, I figure, better to build three or six good screens in a day than to quickly build lots of bad screens just to be finished. (I'm still hundreds of screens from being finished, of course.)
Don't worry I am slower than you. I am making ONE level more than a year...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 01, 2009, 03:13:14
197. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 01, 2009, 05:13:02
And..... behold: Screen no. 200!!!



Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on December 01, 2009, 06:13:59
Yay yay yay yay yay yay yay yay etc. etc. etc. :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Strange Darkness on December 01, 2009, 07:47:16
@Comhon, Strange Darkness: thanks, and sorry I'm so slow! I wish I could build this faster... but, RL time issues aside, I also seem to run out of inspiration if I do more than three to six screens in one day. So, I figure, better to build three or six good screens in a day than to quickly build lots of bad screens just to be finished. (I'm still hundreds of screens from being finished, of course.)
Don't worry I am slower than you. I am making ONE level more than a year...

Dam! you bet me.. My empty corridor been going for a year and if i realease on due date (which i shall!) it would be two years  :ohnoes:

also i really like that screen... the brown its overwhelming  :nuts:
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: RunMan on December 01, 2009, 11:58:29
I think that those light and dark brown contrast too much, with this blue colors as background.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Comhon on December 01, 2009, 14:16:17
And..... behold: Screen no. 200!!!
I don't know, what to say. Great.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 01, 2009, 15:35:34
I think that those light and dark brown contrast too much, with this blue colors as background.

What colour would you use for the background? Just curious. As I said, for plot/worldbuilding reasons I can't change the background (nor the ground, really), but I don't even find the grey aesthetically unfitting in this case so I'm curious what you think would be better.

The short version of the worldbuilding rule I set myself for all outside scenes in this level is: the ground has to look - more or less - like something natural that could exist in the real world, and the sky has to be a (light) grey/blue-grey. For the ground, green, brown and grey are acceptable colours. The level gets more colourful once we move into the caves beneath the surface of this world.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 02, 2009, 01:40:53
205. I don't really like most of what I built today, though, so I may scrap/redo those screens later.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 28, 2009, 20:25:52
215. Productive holidays. A garden and a forest.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 29, 2009, 01:52:20
217 now. With which I'll take myself to bed.

The attached screenshots will give you an idea which tilesets I'm currently working with. Yes, there will be the requisite Smashy's Multi-Purpose Tileset Village (tm) in this level, just as there was the obligatory Rickard Andersson's Hanseatic Town (tm) in it. And I'm not even sure I'll do anything surprising with Smashy's tileset, like I did with the Hanseatic Town one in the lower part of the City in the first part. There's only so much messing with perfection you can do without ending up with something that's, well, *not* perfect anymore, and that tileset of Smashy's *is* perfection. (So is the Hanseatic Town one, but I was hit with a moment of unusual inspiration there.) Anyway... this level is largely a tribute to all my favourite tilesets, and I love the green village you can build from Smashy's so much that I simply couldn't do without it.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on December 29, 2009, 05:44:03
Nice mix of tilesets in the first one.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 29, 2009, 18:41:20
Thanks. I found out I really enjoy building forests...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on December 29, 2009, 18:51:52
Just took my time to look at all the screenshots in the thread, and I must say things seem to get better and better and better... those underground gardens, the upper lower city, the forests... Wow. And so many areas! Can't wait for the release :crazy:
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: DustinCartwright on December 29, 2009, 21:26:08
It looks pretty for sure, and I suppose for an enviromental game it'd have to  :shifty:
These kinds of games were always relaxing and fun to look at
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 30, 2009, 03:49:15
219.

And thanks for the nice feedback, all.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 31, 2009, 02:37:53
I've found a spoiler-free way to report on my progress. See attachment. ;-)

(222. And no, I won't report the number of unique, playable screens *every* day. I just feel like it, at the moment.)

ETA: I feel I should add that the expected number of screens I gave a while ago (400-600) is probably too low. Well, it could still end up being 600, *maybe*... but I don't really believe so. I think we're looking at a final screen count of 600-800. (Arrgh.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 02, 2010, 03:45:33
228.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 04, 2010, 16:53:11
236. The map is now too wide to fit in one screenshot.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pumpkinbot on January 04, 2010, 17:33:31
Since nobody has said anything on this  recently to cheer you on, Hmpf, these screenshots and suck look AWESMOE. :awsum:
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 04, 2010, 18:34:45
Thanks! But, don't worry, I'm not really fishing for compliments, and don't really need cheering up. I'm rather enjoying the building, and simply feel like sharing my progress here on a semi-regular basis.

Not that I mind compliments, mind you. :D Just, don't feel pressured to comment.

I've just counted my areas, btw. I think there's 23, so far. Roughly speaking, because some of them sort of consist of several sub-areas.

Oh, yeah, and another new screen since my last post. So, 237 now. *g*

ETA: I've also updated my rather spoilery Preview Page (http://www.allabouthmpf.com/falling water.htm (http://www.allabouthmpf.com/falling water.htm)). There's some more images there. Not that many more, though. You may get a virus warning from your browser when you visit the page, because my site was hacked and infected recently. I've cleaned it up, though, and the Falling Water page, specifically, has just been freshly re-uploaded, so it should be clean. As far as I can tell the browser warnings are only updated every few months or so, so it will apparently take a few months until my site is officially cleared again. I think.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pumpkinbot on January 04, 2010, 19:11:53
Just didn't want you to think that nobody wanted to play this. ;) 'Cause we do. :o
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Sendy on January 05, 2010, 02:03:56
Really liking the look of this... I love environmental levels. Playing the demo now.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 05, 2010, 03:17:27
@Sendy:

The full level will be much more environmental than the first part, actually. :-)

I just read your list of notes about your big project, and from that I sense a certain... kindred with you, in some respects. Especially the desire to make a map that would look good as a massive screenshot mosaic, too - I'm kind of aiming for that myself, though I'm also trying to make do with the gradients that come with the editor, which means I can't really make a sky that will look good in a screenshot mosaic map. (I started making such a screenshot mosaic, once, btw: http://www.allabouthmpf.com/profile.htm - that's only roughly a tenth of the level as it currently exists, though - to be precise: part of the upper half of the right side of the ground level of the world.) But I really take care to make the screens where different tilesets or combinations of tilesets meet feel like the changes make sense. No abrupt tileset changes, except where it makes sense. Etc.

There will be some 'holes' in my map, of course - mainly for shift/warp screens, dialogue and the like.

Another thing I'm also eager to do for Falling Water, if I can manage, is custom soundscapes. Not so much music (although I hope to find music that will fit the level, too, eventually), but custom edited ambiance. I have no experience with audio editing, though, so that's still a bit iffy. But I'd like to try, because - like you - I think it really helps immersion to have a good soundscape. But that's still rather far off. First, I'll finish building the map, I think.

Speaking of which:

240! Yay! :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Sendy on January 06, 2010, 15:58:20
Ahh, I'm not an environmental 'purist', I just enjoy a good atmosphere.

I started off also using the preset gradients, and I got quite far with them, at one stage I even resorted to using coloured block tiles to patch two gradients together (creating a rather weird and cool sky effect) but eventually I hd to start editing. Eventually I found a program called "gradient maker" which is perfect for making KS backgrounds.

The whole 'continuity between screens' aesthetic is a tricky one to pull off. You can have natural transitions between screens without neccecarily having what I call 'semantic' continuity (that is, absolutely everything including outlines continues smoothly onto the next screen). Then there are the gradients - sometimes you want the same gradient in two screens that are vertically stacked, which looks fine in gameplay, but which would compromise what the final screenshot map would look like. In my next game I'll definitely be finding a happy medium instead of going all out!

The sad thing is, my map also has holes, and has turned out into quite an ugly shape, which doesn't lend well to a map, but there you go...

Anyway, great demo, particularly the use of custom objects in that town area was pretty damn spiffy (and the fact that I've not really seen custom objects make it even more amazing!). I guess now we can have 'go behind' tiles like the original Knytt did?

Overall, I can't really offer any constructive crit.. I was sad when I reached the end, which is a good thing. Looking forwards to more of it :)

EDIT: Oh yes, those finnicky repetetive jumps in the first sewer part - I dare say if you made those tiles more triangular, so there's a teeny bit more room to jump, it would be an improvement. I didn't have much of a problem but I can imagine less experienced platformers having trouble.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 13, 2010, 18:19:16
Ahh, I'm not an environmental 'purist', I just enjoy a good atmosphere.

Yeah, same here, although the rest of Falling Water *will* be pretty much a pure environmental. (Well, you have to collect the four keys, and possibly the eye powerup, but that's it, for the entire rest of the level.)

I'm not particularly good at KS, though, so very hard and insane levels that are very pretty are rather frustrating for me - in the sense of "I know I'd really love to explore them, but I also know I won't be able to", not in the sense of "I can manage them, if I try hard enough." So, I really appreciate it when people make it easy for me to explore their worlds. :-)

Quote
I started off also using the preset gradients, and I got quite far with them, at one stage I even resorted to using coloured block tiles to patch two gradients together (creating a rather weird and cool sky effect) but eventually I hd to start editing. Eventually I found a program called "gradient maker" which is perfect for making KS backgrounds.

Hmm.... I'm tempted now to find this program... though on the other hand I kind of like working within certain limitations. Have to ponder this...

Quote
The whole 'continuity between screens' aesthetic is a tricky one to pull off. You can have natural transitions between screens without neccecarily having what I call 'semantic' continuity (that is, absolutely everything including outlines continues smoothly onto the next screen). Then there are the gradients - sometimes you want the same gradient in two screens that are vertically stacked, which looks fine in gameplay, but which would compromise what the final screenshot map would look like. In my next game I'll definitely be finding a happy medium instead of going all out!

Heh. I know what you mean. I'm compromising a lot regarding the backgrounds, but not so much regarding tile continuity - so far, anyway, though I'm getting to some areas now that seem just about impossible to link up convincingly with other areas, aesthetically speaking, because the tilesets just don't match with any of the others I intend to use.

Quote
The sad thing is, my map also has holes, and has turned out into quite an ugly shape, which doesn't lend well to a map, but there you go...

Mine will probably end up with much bigger holes in it, finally, than it has now, too. If I were to fill *all* that space, it'd take me forever! *g*

Quote
Anyway, great demo, particularly the use of custom objects in that town area was pretty damn spiffy (and the fact that I've not really seen custom objects make it even more amazing!). I guess now we can have 'go behind' tiles like the original Knytt did?

Thanks! And 'go behind' tiles are easy to make, really - cut a tile from a tileset, render a part of it invisible (if you want a window or something similar, that is), and declare it a custom object!

Quote
Overall, I can't really offer any constructive crit.. I was sad when I reached the end, which is a good thing. Looking forwards to more of it :)

Glad to hear you enjoyed it! More will be coming... eventually. *g*

Quote
EDIT: Oh yes, those finnicky repetetive jumps in the first sewer part - I dare say if you made those tiles more triangular, so there's a teeny bit more room to jump, it would be an improvement. I didn't have much of a problem but I can imagine less experienced platformers having trouble.

Yeah... I know that part's kind of annoying. I have to think about whether it's annoying enough to warrant changing the tileset (especially since I'm not sure how to contact the tileset maker)...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on January 13, 2010, 18:42:31
I'm compromising a lot regarding the backgrounds, but not so much regarding tile continuity - so far, anyway, though I'm getting to some areas now that seem just about impossible to link up convincingly with other areas, aesthetically speaking, because the tilesets just don't match with any of the others I intend to use.
I have a tip regarding that...if you find that two tilesets hate each other with a passion, it can help to add a neutral sort of screen, e.g. a bridge over water. It would last two screens, with each screen showing one of the tilesets beginning/ending, depending on what direction the player is moving. The downside to that is that you're going to have to leave some of each screen devoid of tiles, since you'll be using both tileset slots on each screen (one for the tileset you're transitioning to/from and one for the tileset with the bridge).

I have to think about whether it's annoying enough to warrant changing the tileset (especially since I'm not sure how to contact the tileset maker)...
To find a tileset maker, first check and see if they're on the forum. Then see if any of the moderators or administrators know where you might find them. If neither of those routes turns up anything, I wouldn't fault you if you went ahead and modified it, as long as you make a note in portion of the tileset where the author's name goes that it's not the original.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 14, 2010, 03:24:42
257.

(@PYP: will try to reply tomorrow.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 15, 2010, 00:26:18
No time, today, for my planned rambling about transitions, alas.

259. Mostly rebuilt some older screens I didn't like. Now I like them a lot.

Also, it's taking all my willpower to *not* post screenshots of at least three new areas I've started recently. Really. Epic amounts of willpower. MUST. NOT. SPOIL. ENTIRE. LEVEL. ARRGH.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 17, 2010, 04:59:33
No time today, either, but: combined map screenshot! Behold Falling Water at 270 screens minus one! (I think. It's been a while since I did a proper count, area by area.)

Couple of notes:

The long horizontal line of screens, bottom right, is not part of the level (and not included in the screen count). It's just a series of concept sketches for areas still to be built.

The vertical line of screens in the middle *is* part of the level, but not part of the screen count, because it's just a bit of sky which I put there so as to have an axis around which to orient the level.

Oh, and the City, the part of the level you guys already know? That's in the upper right third of the map. Everything below and to the left of that is new.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 17, 2010, 10:20:30
270.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on January 17, 2010, 17:31:44
That looks very nice.
I very much enjoyed testing the first one, and I hope I will also do so for this one.
I am still tester, I hope.

Btw, how many screens is is gonna get? (estimate?)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 17, 2010, 18:55:10
That looks very nice.
I very much enjoyed testing the first one, and I hope I will also do so for this one.
I am still tester, I hope.

Sure!

Quote
Btw, how many screens is is gonna get? (estimate?)

Many. Manymanymany. Very rough guesstimate: hmm... it's beginning to look like 800 or so. Now that the general outline of the world is almost finished, it's a bit easier to estimate how much is still needed to fill it in.

I'll probably release the second part at around 600 screens (100 of which are the first part), though I may chop it into two releases if I happen to finish one side of the world a bit sooner than the other, as looks likely at the moment. The last part (either the third or the fourth, depending on whether I chop the second part into two) will be smaller again, though probably still bigger than the first part was; maybe around 200 screens; and it will be a separate 'continent', so it will make sense to release it separately.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: DesiredRevenge on January 26, 2010, 22:50:27
Cute Level.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 14, 2010, 23:37:56
Cute Level.

Thanks.

Well, time for another progress report. I've slowed down a bit due to RL stuff again (job hunting: so much fun. *sigh*) but I've made a few new screens in the last couple of days, and improved some older ones, as well. So, the latest screen count is 275 (I think. Kinda hard to keep track of it...)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Nakelyo on February 15, 2010, 08:12:29
Wow love how you designed the screenies  :D Definetely a level I'l look forward to   :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 16, 2010, 21:55:54
Wow love how you designed the screenies  :D Definetely a level I'l look forward to   :)

Thanks! I think I crossed the 300 screens mark yesterday...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: WatcherCCG on February 16, 2010, 22:00:51
Roughly halfway there? Good luck! 8D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 16, 2010, 22:02:13
Roughly halfway there? Good luck! 8D

Heh, yes, I hope so! (You never know: when I was at 100 screens, I still believed I'd be done at 300...)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 18, 2010, 03:40:55
Huh. I just discovered a bit of nasty history that I really didn't expect. (Sometimes a screen experiment just looks so *right* that it feels like it always was part of the world... so now I have to find a way to accommodate that screen - and the ones that will develop from it - in my world's history...)

ETA: Err, okay, I think I'm being a bit too mysterious here. Well, basically, I'd meant to put something nice into that nook - maybe a small garden. But that prison just goes really well with the rusty... structure; and the idea of a whole rusty 'cliff' dotted with prisons like that just sparked my imagination. I think the history of the world of Falling Water had some really unpleasant periods...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 18, 2010, 20:25:26
There may be something just slightly disturbing about how excited I am about building a whole tunnel system full of prison cells.

ETA: Here, have one more screenshot.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Nakelyo on February 20, 2010, 09:02:00
New screens are nice, the tunnel full of prison cells is a good idea  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 20, 2010, 22:09:36
New screens are nice, the tunnel full of prison cells is a good idea  :)

Thanks.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Comhon on February 21, 2010, 16:59:58
I must agree. Really good idea.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 21, 2010, 23:23:07
I must agree. Really good idea.

Thanks! I love tileset serendipity... (which is one reason why I honestly love working with pre-existing tilesets.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 22, 2010, 03:22:39
OMG. Concept sketch explosion!

Here's some results. These are tileset and colour combinations I'm pretty sure will end up in the level somehow, though probably not in exactly the form you see here.

ETA: The first three are from a series which yielded several usable concepts. The fourth one is from another series that yielded another usable result beside this, which is, however, still very rough.

ETA2: Eeeek, I'm doing it again: posting far too many screenshots. Seriously, if I continue like this nobody will have to play the level... :-(

Anybody know of a working cure against excessive posting? Maybe I should ask the mods to block me! :D

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on February 22, 2010, 04:10:36
Anybody know of a working cure against excessive posting?
Perhaps you could post small screens. Like 2 or 3 tiles square. It would show a bit of the look of the screen without spoiling the whole thing.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Nakelyo on February 22, 2010, 10:28:41
Amazing screens again, love the fourth screen  :D

And I agree with Purple Pineapple's solution  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Comhon on February 22, 2010, 12:36:49
Yes, the fourth screen is great
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Feline Monstrosity on February 22, 2010, 20:31:33
I like the colours in the third one.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 22, 2010, 20:53:38
@Purple Pineapple: That's a simple yet brilliant idea, I think I'll do that from now on. Maybe, if I can find the time, I'll even go back and change all the already uploaded images in this thread to small, icon-type ones... With my glacier-like speed, by the time I publish this level everyone will have forgotten the original screenshots if I remove them now, I bet! ;-)

@Feline Monstrosity: Yeah, it's mostly the colors I love in the third, too. I think I'll make considerable changes to how I'm using the various elements, though - I'm not really happy with that... Well, it was just a colour combination test.

@Everyone: What, no love for the second screen? I actually think that's the best one - minimalist and bold. (I love decoration, but I also get minimalism, and occasionally *really* love it.) I've been looking for ages for the perfect tileset and background with which to combine the 'plants' from the 'That Place Where...' tileset, and I think I've finally found them!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on February 23, 2010, 01:55:41
Re @everyone: The first and the last two screens are beautiful. The second screen, however, gives me the impression of a dusty cave environment. Now that I look at it more closely, it does look like a great setting, but then again they all do.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 23, 2010, 02:17:17
The second screen, however, gives me the impression of a dusty cave environment.

That's probably because it *is* a dusty cave environment. *g*
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on February 23, 2010, 04:48:55
I was pointing out its contrast to the other screens, which look more decorative. :P
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Feline Monstrosity on February 23, 2010, 17:59:11
I like the second screen too. The first and last are my least favourite, because they are more boring.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 23, 2010, 21:28:00
I like the second screen too. The first and last are my least favourite, because they are more boring.

Yeah, I know the last in particular is not exactly original. I often try to do something at least *slightly* original with my screens, but not always - sometimes I just like the 'normal' look of a tileset so much that I want to have it in my level even if it's been done a million times before. :-) Smashy's green village is a prime example for that. Every time I see the bog-standard green village from the All-purpose Tileset in a level I just feel unreasonably happy, so *of course* I want it in my level, too! Same goes for the 'Machine' caves. :-)

I'm glad you appreciate the second screen! I'd originally built it with the grey version of the tileset and only discovered how well the red version went with the 'flowers' by accident; I'm always delighted when something like that happens... it's part of what makes KS level building such tremendous fun, this serendipity effect.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Razzorman on February 23, 2010, 22:11:48
The second screen is boring since there is nothing in it, and the third screen just looks off. I think it might be because of the colors.
The first and last screens look the best, though they are using fairly common tilesets, so I can definitely see why some find them boring.
Cheesecakes.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Evil on February 24, 2010, 02:14:02
Why cant you just call it waterfall...or rain?  :shocked:

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 24, 2010, 02:24:21
Well, a) because it's not about either of these, but about a world in which there is a lot of falling water of different kinds (both waterfalls and rain are falling water, after all), and b) in this world, the distinction between the two, and the idea that one of the two is 'weather' whereas the other is a geographical feature, has - historically speaking - not seemed very obvious to the people who live there. For the partial reason that 'weather' in our sense does not exist in their world.

'Rain' only becomes worthy of a word of its own if it's a type of weather that needs to be distinguished from other types of weather, after all. In a world where rain is constant, there is no need for such a conceptual distinction. The people who live there do note that it's water, and that's it's falling, of course, and possibly they even have a special word for it - but that word would not be analogous in meaning to *our* concept of 'rain', because it would be completely unassociated to the idea of weather. So I chose not to use our word 'rain' for it in the level.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on February 25, 2010, 00:25:48
There may be something just slightly disturbing about how excited I am about building a whole tunnel system full of prison cells.
Oh, not at all. If you can make a history for your world that goes deeper than the player will ever be (explicitly) told, then you're doing a great job. :)

As for the four screens you posted, I like all of them but the second; it looks much too bland.

Yeah, I know the last in particular is not exactly original.
Originality can hang, that's my favorite one. That better be going in there or I might throw a fit. XD
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 25, 2010, 00:43:30
As for the four screens you posted, I like all of them but the second; it looks much too bland.

You, sir, lack an appreciation of minimalism. ;-)

Quote
Originality can hang, that's my favorite one. That better be going in there or I might throw a fit. XD

Oh yeah, I'm pretty sure it will be. So will be screen 2, though. ;-)

(Or rather, in both cases, these exact screens may or may not end up in the level, but the looks I experimented with in them most definitely will.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: minmay on February 25, 2010, 02:26:43
You, sir, lack an appreciation of minimalism. ;-)

There's a fine line between minimalistic and really, really ugly.

Just saying.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 25, 2010, 03:22:58
You, sir, lack an appreciation of minimalism. ;-)

There's a fine line between minimalistic and really, really ugly.

Just saying.

Minimalism, as anything else in the realm of aesthetics, can be done competently as well as badly. Yes. Even if there's little else I seem to be able to agree with you on ;-), I think we can agree on that.

We can probably also agree that there is *some* amount of individual leeway in judging questions of aesthetics. I wouldn't go so far as to say that aesthetics is entirely relative - there are some fairly fundamental 'rules' for what human beings tend to find attractive, in terms of proportions, colour combinations and whatnot - but there's definitely some flexibility there. (Although you may disagree with me there, I dunno. You seem very strict in your judgements, so maybe you believe that your aesthetics is the One True Aesthetics, and everybody else is just Wrong?)

Me, I happen to be rather flexible in my aesthetic preferences. I like Bauhaus architecture; I like medieval book illumination - just to give two examples. I like some very different, in fact: diametrically opposed, aesthetic styles. And part of the joy of KS for me is being able to play around with some very different looks/styles.

Anyway, to get back to my beloved screen 2 ;-): for me, that screen works extremely well, meaning, it makes the aesthetics synapses in my brain fire in all the right ways - and I even have a fairly good idea why it works so well:

- The colours - the dark red background, the brighter red foreground, and the white-and-red highlights provided by the flowers - go well together.
- The screen has a good amount of contrast between the background and the foreground, the background and the flowers, and the foreground and the flowers, while still preserving a monochrome general impression. This means that the overall impression is harmonic, with the contrast saving it from becoming dull. Also, the contrast makes the flowers stand out nicely.
- The proportions and placement of elements, both in terms of colour and shape, are pretty good. Just enough symmetry - in the vague diagonal described by the tunnel - to orient the eye, but enough asymmetry to keep things interesting; etc.

Everybody's free to disagree, of course. As I said - there's definitely some amount of individual taste involved in judging things like this.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: minmay on February 25, 2010, 03:44:30
Oops, I really should have clarified!  I wasn't actually trying to say the screen was ugly (although I confess that, like PYP, I consider it a bit bland).
Rather, my post was intended as a moderately humorous, albeit fairly obvious, statement; that if you go too far with minimalism, you'll almost instantaneously cross over into blandness/ugliness.  And how far is too far differs from person to person.

Sorry about the disruption!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 25, 2010, 13:31:12
Sorry about the disruption!

Oh, don't worry! I'm just easy to set off on tangents like that - art school does that to you. ;-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Feline Monstrosity on February 25, 2010, 17:59:43
I'm glad you appreciate the second screen! I'd originally built it with the grey version of the tileset and only discovered how well the red version went with the 'flowers' by accident; I'm always delighted when something like that happens... it's part of what makes KS level building such tremendous fun, this serendipity effect.
I could tell because the tile layout is almost identical.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on February 25, 2010, 19:46:16
As for the four screens you posted, I like all of them but the second; it looks much too bland.

You, sir, lack an appreciation of minimalism. ;-)

The reason the second looks bland to me isn't so much of a minimalism issue as the way the tileset contrasts with the background. If you look at the tileset itself, it's rather vibrant; it has distinct patterns that draw the eye. On the other hand, the background is just a gradient, and it partially blends into the tileset near the bottom.

Compare this to the first screenshot: in that one, the tileset doesn't have any patterns that stand out on their own and distract from the rest of the screen. And the rest of the screen does have things to look at as well, which draws your attention more to the space around the tilesets where you can walk than to the tilesets themselves.

The third screenshot makes use of a tileset similar to that in the second screenshot; however, the background is interesting to look at, and contrasts nicely (color-wise) against the tileset itself. The area that the player is intended to focus on is brightly colored and stands out against the beige tileset.

In retrospect, maybe "bland" wasn't the best term to use to convey all of this, but it was what struck me first. :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 25, 2010, 22:11:30
Ah, poor second screenshot, nobody but its mommy really loves it. :D

I still do love it rather a lot, though, so it will be in the level. But it will probably be a fairly small area anyway - there's not that much you can do with that look, and I usually only make bigger areas when I have a tileset combination that allows for a lot of variation.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: cheesecakeFTW on February 26, 2010, 19:35:45
Falling water seems great! Can't find it in the levels archive though, maybe it's not finished?
I'm working on something similar right now, about 150 screens so far. here's some screenshots  8D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: cheesecakeFTW on February 26, 2010, 19:37:06
Ops here's the rest..
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 26, 2010, 20:48:03
Hey, cheesecakeFTW. That looks pretty cool, especially the first screenshot. But you usually open a new thread for a level preview, and I think your project definitely deserves a thread of its own. So, why don't you make a thread for it?

Oh, and for the download of the first part of Falling Water, check my sig. ;-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: cheesecakeFTW on February 27, 2010, 00:35:00
Thanks! just wanted to mention it, maybe i´ll start a new thread.. Anyway, now i'm gonna play falling water :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: cheesecakeFTW on February 27, 2010, 01:17:32
Falling water is great :D though i gotta admit that im stuck :O in the caves where you get wallclimb, how du I get out? :P
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: cheesecakeFTW on February 27, 2010, 01:23:15
ahh figured it out.. :P
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: cheesecakeFTW on February 27, 2010, 01:34:15
Ok so i'm finished now.. pretty cool :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on February 27, 2010, 22:52:15
Hey cheescakeFTW, I'm just gonna mention here that, even though Hmpf doesn't seem to mind, it's generally considered pretty untactful to post screenshots of your own levels in another person's thread, and putting more than one is generally taken as rude. Most people would view it as an attempt to divert the discussion to your own level. That's clearly not what you were aiming at, so it's fine in this circumstance, but I'm just letting you know now so that you don't run into misunderstandings later on. :)

REALLY QUICK EDIT: Hurp de derp, it appears that Hmpf already mentioned this stuff. Sorry for being redundant. X)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 03, 2010, 18:55:28
After taking a break from Falling Water to build Remembering the City (what is it about me and titles involving the present progressive tense... or whatever that is? There's Jumping in the Rain, too...) I'm back on track with FW. Sadly, it turns out I miscounted when I proclaimed I had passed 300 screens, so I've in fact only passed the 300 mark *now*.

Currently building some pretty neat stuff, btw... but I'm trying to be good and *not* post screenshots of everything. *g*

ETA: Oh, and also: both sides of the world seem to be growing at about the same pace, and I also really like the idea of handing you guys a *huge* world to explore, so I've decided against splitting this part in two.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 04, 2010, 22:11:40
Maaan... I wish I could give myself selective amnesia when I'm done with this, so I could explore it as if I'd never seen it before. Because in so many ways, this really is the level of my dreams. In a very literal way, too: I tend to have dreams in which I'm exploring huge, convoluted, crazy structures and/or landscapes (sometimes the difference is hard to tell, in my dreams) that are often staggeringly beautiful and awe-inspiring. So I'm kind of trying to recreate the feelings those dreams evoke in me, to some extent. I think I'm succeeding... but I'll never be able to experience the level as if I hadn't built it. :-(

Maybe if I just don't touch it at all for a couple of years after finishing it, and then play it in 2013 or so... *g*

Some 320 screens now, I think. Areas that were unconnected before are beginning to link up, sometimes in ways I hadn't exactly planned...

Also, I'm having trouble with the actual logic of designing this level. Mostly it's just a free roaming level, but there are a few keys and two powerups still to hide, and thus a few areas that will have to be accessed in some kind of logical order... only I can't really figure out which areas those should be, etc.

It's doing my head in...

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 04, 2010, 22:45:19
Sorry, btw, for the kinda uninformative rambling. I tend to use this thread like a blog, I guess. ;-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: minmay on March 05, 2010, 03:08:04
Also, I'm having trouble with the actual logic of designing this level. Mostly it's just a free roaming level, but there are a few keys and two powerups still to hide, and thus a few areas that will have to be accessed in some kind of logical order... only I can't really figure out which areas those should be, etc.

Ooh.  This is bad.

See, generally one plans for this shortly after, or even before, one has started making the level itself - not after making hundreds of screens.
I'm afraid that there's no easy way out of this, but keep in mind that it usually makes sense to place more than one of a powerup in a level, thus encouraging the free-roaming playstyle.  (I don't recommend this with the detector, eyeball, hologram, or keys, though.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 05, 2010, 03:13:35
Also, I'm having trouble with the actual logic of designing this level. Mostly it's just a free roaming level, but there are a few keys and two powerups still to hide, and thus a few areas that will have to be accessed in some kind of logical order... only I can't really figure out which areas those should be, etc.

Ooh.  This is bad.

Yeah, I know. *g* It's because this is essentially an environmental, and I only decided to put in the keys and the eyeball powerup later. (For that matter, I don't *have* to put them in, really. It's not like the idea of the level requires them; I just figured it would be cool to have some stuff to 'find' that wouldn't be accessible by just stumbling into it.)

ETA: Also, just because it's 320 screens already doesn't mean that its internal layout is very defined yet. I built the (outer) outline of my world first, and now I'm beginning to fill it in. So, I'm only just beginning on the phase of actually constructing the parts that require the kind of logic we're talking about here.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: the Jack on March 05, 2010, 08:51:03
I had an English teacher once who said the only right way to write a termpaper was to start with an outline, and then follow that outline to produce a rough draft, and then rewrite the rough draft into a proper essay.

Notwithstanding the fact that many people do find that method, or some variation of it, helpful... the teacher was very, very wrong.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 05, 2010, 18:07:48
I had an English teacher once who said the only right way to write a termpaper was to start with an outline, and then follow that outline to produce a rough draft, and then rewrite the rough draft into a proper essay.

Notwithstanding the fact that many people do find that method, or some variation of it, helpful... the teacher was very, very wrong.

Well... I *did* start with something like an outline. Though probably not in the sense that s/he intended... *g*
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on March 05, 2010, 19:03:56
The closest thing I had to an outline when I started both of my levels was a vague idea of what I wanted. In my opinion, outlines are best for things that require careful positioning (such as challenge levels), whereas they aren't as necessary for things like environmental levels where it won't make that much of a difference if that block is moved over a bit or if there's an extra screen somewhere.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 05, 2010, 20:22:50
The closest thing I had to an outline when I started both of my levels was a vague idea of what I wanted. In my opinion, outlines are best for things that require careful positioning (such as challenge levels), whereas they aren't as necessary for things like environmental levels where it won't make that much of a difference if that block is moved over a bit or if there's an extra screen somewhere.

Yeah, I do think the 'flow of consciousness' approach to level making can work quite well for environmentals.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: cheesecakeFTW on March 05, 2010, 20:23:33
In my level i just wanted to learn the editor and it became a level.. kind of.. I got all of my ideas while playing.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 05, 2010, 20:33:26
In my level i just wanted to learn the editor and it became a level.. kind of..

Yeah, that's what happened with my first level, Jumping in the Rain, too. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 18, 2010, 13:18:41
Built an awesome underground village yesterday.

No screenshot, though.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 18, 2010, 13:34:41
ajreoshgporeiharnweioöfejwaraiuwehwqioniov

It's so hard not to post screenshots.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: WatcherCCG on March 18, 2010, 18:55:06
Just give us a screen number update. That should suffice.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 18, 2010, 19:02:30
Just give us a screen number update. That should suffice.

Sadly, still around the same number as last time I posted a screen number: 320ish. It's not really the amount of what I've done recently that's awesome; it's *what* I've done with those few, new screens.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on March 19, 2010, 02:37:04
Bit of a growth spurt today. I don't have an exact number, but I think it may have crossed the 330 threshold today.

I love my new little village so much... (it only accounts for three of the new screens, though - it's a very tiny village).
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Healy on May 24, 2010, 22:23:22
Hmph, are you still working on this? It's been a while since you last posted.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on May 25, 2010, 10:28:13
Hmph, are you still working on this? It's been a while since you last posted.

Last time we spoke she said her RL became really busy, but she wasn't planning on abandonind Falling Water.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 12, 2010, 21:02:46
Hmph, are you still working on this? It's been a while since you last posted.

Yep, I am. Well, or rather, I will work on it again, once RL leaves me the time for it. At the moment it's impossible to do much of anything that isn't work or uni. :-(
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 18, 2010, 14:53:57
Know what? I think I'll work on this a bit today. Important RL work be damned. I need a relaxing holiday in my own little world.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on June 18, 2010, 21:00:50
That's good news! I'm kinda returning to the KS community, so if you need a tester, I guess you know where the PM button is!  C)
(Btw, do you even remember me? I sure hope so)
(Btw/btw: I didn't know you were a girl. Funny finding that out like this!)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 19, 2010, 01:33:50
That's good news! I'm kinda returning to the KS community, so if you need a tester, I guess you know where the PM button is!  C)
(Btw, do you even remember me? I sure hope so)
(Btw/btw: I didn't know you were a girl. Funny finding that out like this!)

Yeah, I haven't forgotten about you guys, don't worry! Nor have I forgotten about KS. I'm fairly constant in my interests - when I like something, you can be fairly sure I'll still like it the next year, and the year after, etc. So, really, after a whole year now of working on Falling Water, it's extremely unlikely I'd just drop the project.

I'm not sure if the word "girl" applies to me anymore, btw. I'm rather old... Makes me feel *slightly* odd here, sometimes, but I've mostly gotten over that. ;-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on June 19, 2010, 22:15:12
Yay, Hmpf is back! Welcome back Hmpf!  C)p
(Yeah, I realize you're still very busy, just being happy here :))
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 21, 2010, 13:59:11
Yay, Hmpf is back! Welcome back Hmpf!  C)p
(Yeah, I realize you're still very busy, just being happy here :))

I was never gone! Just lurking! :-)

I've built a couple of really awesome cities/villages recently... I love crazy, vertically layered cities. Sadly, there's some limits to building those in a 2D game... The current one's giving me quite a headache because I have to be inconsistent in some ways - some ladders and stairs you can climb, and others you can't. I realise that from a game design point of view that is bad. But I just love the look too much to do away with the inconsistency entirely. (And there's no way to build these screens without inconsistencies.)

I've also committed the sin of placing a very 'flat' tileset and two very '3D' ones in close proximity. The colours of the more 3D alternatives to the flat one didn't fit the area so well. (I suppose I could have tried to adjust the colours, but I'm trying to build the most complex world I can manage with only the available, unaltered tilesets here.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 22, 2010, 00:25:43
Errm. You know I have trouble grasping the concept of when it is appropriate to post screenshots. ;-) I know I've posted an awful lot... does that mean that most people would prefer me to not post any screenshots anymore, ever, for this level? Or is there a point at which it would be okay to post a new screenshot?

ETA: Ah well, the least I can do is post a screencount. (No guarantees that it's right, though - it's getting difficult to count the screens...): 343 screens. I think.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on June 22, 2010, 04:06:01
You've already got the reputation for screen shot over-posting. You might as well revel in it. I'm planning a very tall city in my big project, and I haven't quite figured out how to make it realistic, attractive, and interesting to play. I was curious to see the difficulties you' were describing with your city, and then actually surprised to find no pictures.

I'm not necessarily saying you should post more pictures. I've never made an environmental, so I have no personal measuring stick for what counts as a spoiler here.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 22, 2010, 14:41:12
You've already got the reputation for screen shot over-posting. You might as well revel in it.

Heh. :D Well, I'll have to ponder that. I don't really want to spoil people's fun. It's difficult for me to judge because I'm a total spoiler addict, as well as a compulsive replayer/rewatcher/rereader, i.e. being surprised is the least of my motivations for enjoying something. I'm mainly playing environmentals for the aesthetic experience, and that doesn't change when you know the look of an area. In fact, knowing a particularly pretty area will be in a forthcoming level only heightens my anticipation. (Also, a single screenshot rarely spoils an entire area - I try to build most areas with a fair bit of internal variety, so a screenshot won't tell you how *everything* looks in that area.)

Quote
I'm planning a very tall city in my big project, and I haven't quite figured out how to make it realistic, attractive, and interesting to play. I was curious to see the difficulties you' were describing with your city, and then actually surprised to find no pictures.

Well, you can check out the Lower Lower City in the published first part of Falling Water for an example of me building multi-layer cities... I'm afraid I only party succeeded, there. It's pretty, for sure, but it's not particularly interesting to play. (It's not huge enough to become boring, mind you; but it essentially only offers the player one predetermined path.)

The newer cities/villages I've been building... well, with one of them I eventually opted for making it all background/foreground (i.e.: none of it is really 'playable'), because there just wasn't any way I could make it possible for the player to interact with it in an interesting way. With the other, I'm trying to do something with ladders, but of course, that approach is constrained by KS's inability to allow diagonal solid ground in screen transitions.

I actually wouldn't want to 'spoil' either of those two cities for the 'general public' here, but we could talk about this via PM, with screenshots, if you like.

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on June 22, 2010, 17:00:02
A good rule of thumb for when to post screenshots is that if you want to, then do so. :D

I'd keep it to 4-8 screenshots per two pages of quality posts, though.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 22, 2010, 22:45:31
Didn't I post a screencount earlier today, when I hit 350? Hmm.

Anyway, turns out I miscounted (probably). And I've added another five or so screens. Hence, the count is now... 363.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on June 23, 2010, 10:37:00
I'd love to see another screenshot! And you post screenshots under "spoiler" tags, that way you'd both keep posting screenshots and avoid spoiling stuff for people who don't want spoilers.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 23, 2010, 14:06:50
I'd love to see another screenshot! And you post screenshots under "spoiler" tags, that way you'd both keep posting screenshots and avoid spoiling stuff for people who don't want spoilers.

Okay...

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Salmoneous on June 23, 2010, 14:34:42
Those are quite good. I like second and third.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 23, 2010, 14:38:37
Thanks. Glad to hear that, especially as both of them are among those that, in their respective areas, I *don't* consider the most successful screens. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 23, 2010, 21:14:27
I've been very irresponsible in the last few days. I've spent a lot of time working on my level, when really there was a lot of important work waiting. I'm afraid I have to go back to doing that work now.

I *have* reached the 370 screens mark today, though. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 24, 2010, 13:28:15
Okay. 373 screens, and I think I'm just about knytted out, for now. Mind you, this is addictive, so I keep returning to it when really I shouldn't. But I can see that my designs are getting less inspired, which is usually a sign that I should give level building a rest, again. I've been very productive, and built some pretty nice stuff, in the last... three quarters of a week or so, so obviously, it was good for my creative energies that I took a few months' break from level building. Let's see what I come up with when I come back to it in a couple months' time again.

Oh, and I gave this a play-through recently. It has about an hour's worth of playing time, now (if you sort of rush through it, not really taking much time to take in the sights.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: bulbapuck on June 24, 2010, 16:10:11
Hmm, I thought I had commented on this, but I can't find my comment.. So here it is:

I played through part 1 and I absolutely loved it :) and looking at the screenshots the level seems to get more and more beautiful. I'm definately looking forward to this.

I can totally relate to KS taking up too much time, I failed 2 courses this year due to working on levels. Once you get started it's so addictive :P

Anyway, best of luck!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on June 24, 2010, 17:05:00
373 screens

It has about an hour's worth of playing time, now (if you sort of rush through it, not really taking much time to take in the sights.)

...O_o

Wow.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: munchybot on June 28, 2010, 10:03:44
I just played the demo, and I was sad when I reached the end. :<

It was really fun and the environments were beautiful. I especially liked the Lower City and the underground museum, and the cliffs to the left of the upper city looked like something out of Braid... Anyway, I can't wait.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 29, 2010, 11:36:35
I can totally relate to KS taking up too much time, I failed 2 courses this year due to working on levels.

Whoah. Okay, *that* hasn't happened to me yet. Let's hope it doesn't...

@ Pick Yer Poison:

Keep in mind that's the screencount and playing time for the entire level, including the already published part. So there's only around 270 'new' screens so far. Also, when I say "rushing" I of course mean "rushing, insofar as a Crap Player can rush", i.e. the rushing does include some silly drowning-in-ponds. And I wasn't trying to do a speedrun; just playing normally and not really pausing to take in the sights. I'm sure you could play the level in much shorter time. (Then again, why would you want to? It's an environmental... ;-))

@ munchybot:

Thanks!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: munchybot on June 29, 2010, 13:05:59
Played it again and I found a couple problems or things I just generally didn't enjoy.

-The bottom step outside the powerup emporium is too high to walk up, and you actually have to jump. This isn't really a real problem but it ticks me off for some reason >_<

-The sewers that you enter from the emporium are very, very boring. I mean, the gameplay is fine, it's an environmental level, but it actually needs an interesting environment for that, and the sewers are almost completely just the same monotonous brick and black background. Some other backgrounds and different tiles here and there would really fix that up. The only place where I found the gameplay to actually be annoying is that climbing bit near the beginning of the sewers, where you just have to jump back and forth and back and forth to get up the tunnel, and missing by a pixel will send you falling back down again.

-Going through the aforementioned jumping bit a second time.

-Jumping through this room (http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/Munchy365/gah.png) can be frustrating due to the ceiling being right above the floor where you're supposed to land. There's also a way to die one block after the screen change, which is hard to avoid if you don't see it coming (which no one would the first time).

-Falling down into this room (http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/Munchy365/argh.png). When you're in the room above, you're moving quickly to the right and you can't see that hole coming because the waterfall is covering it. Still moving to the right, you fall straight into the water and die.

-When going from left to right between these rooms (http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh98/Munchy365/blargh.png), if you jump right before the screen changes you can get inside the walls (though this was handy for getting up to the Lower City without walking all the way back :P). I'm not sure how this is possible since the tiles match up; I think you might have put the mossy stuff hanging from the ceiling on layer 3.

-The gameplay up at the top of the buildings in the Lower City felt very limiting. It could have made some great platforming but instead you just walk while holding the down arrow.

And so concludes my list of things that I didn't like about it. Keep in mind I'm completely new to this (joined the forum last night) and I'm not a very good player, so I don't think my opinion counts for much :P

Oh, also, is there anything in the labyrinth house? I walked around for a bit and hit a dead end in there.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 29, 2010, 13:39:21
Nah, you're right about all of those. I was new to level building, too, hence there are some beginner's problems, obviously. :-)

I wish, especially, that I could have made the Lower City more interesting to play (I actually discussed this problem a bit at the top of this page of this thread!) - it's just that it's very, very difficult, if not impossible, to create a multi-tiered screen that works. Or rather, multi-tiered *can* be made to work, but the problem with the Lower City is that it's not just multi-tiered but, theoretically, would also need plenty of vertical solid surfaces. Well, let's just say, I tried all kinds of things, but in the end I had to face the fact that none of those ideas really worked and I had to go for the linear approach. It still makes me sad.

The Labyrinth House has a 'secret' exit to the left, but other than that, there's nothing hidden in it, no. It was just an experiment in turning tiles into objects.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on July 01, 2010, 13:32:45
How many screens are you aiming at? Because right now things look like a beautiful ever-expanding world. As a matter of fact, it got me thinking of how nice it would be if the protagonist found out, at the end of the game, that there is no end, that the world is being created all the time, more and more and more layers, etc. Eh.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 01, 2010, 20:03:47
How many screens are you aiming at?

I don't really have a fixed number of screens I'm aiming at. I know what the world of Falling Water *looks like* (roughly), so I'm aiming to build the world as it exists in my head. I already know, for example, that I have built (nearly) all the open surface area that exists in it now, at least for parts one and two; there's just a tiny bit of sea and islands missing and then there'll be only caves left for me to build. (I already miss the open air... and the vegetation. Though there's some vegetation in the caves, too.) It's really hard to estimate how many screens I'll end up with, though, especially as there's an entire... 'continent' (which will constitute part 3, because there's a very... natural break in the story there) that I haven't even started yet.

I think parts 1 and 2 may come in at something between 500 and 600 screens, eventually (that's ca. 110 screens for part 1, and the rest is all part 2. I initially meant to split part 2 into two parts, and I may still do that, in which case the aforementioned part 3 would be promoted to part 4, of course. ;-))

The real problem with the level at the moment is the story, not completing the map. I know, more or less, what the map will look like, and could probably build it in a matter of a few months - but the story's still elusive, except for the very vaguest outline. I'm also contemplating scrapping a part of that outline, which means that the actual shape of my world has stopped making quite as much sense. But it's too late to change the shape now, even if another shape would make more sense.

Quote
Because right now things look like a beautiful ever-expanding world. As a matter of fact, it got me thinking of how nice it would be if the protagonist found out, at the end of the game, that there is no end, that the world is being created all the time, more and more and more layers, etc. Eh.

That, alas, is impossible, for reasons that are quite central to the story. However, I can already see myself starting another big project when Falling Water is finished. Building KS levels is the closest I've ever come to being able to recreate the strange worlds I see in my dreams, and there's still plenty where Falling Water came from...

I may have to learn how to make my own tilesets, eventually... (although it's amazing how much you can accomplish with the public tilesets, really!)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on July 02, 2010, 14:11:59
I was already amazed at the news of another continent, and then this:

That, alas, is impossible, for reasons that are quite central to the story. However, I can already see myself starting another big project when Falling Water is finished. Building KS levels is the closest I've ever come to being able to recreate the strange worlds I see in my dreams, and there's still plenty where Falling Water came from...

Can't quite express the enthusiasm in words, so here's the same thing in smileys:
 O_o O_o O_o  :whoa: :whoa: :whoa:  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

:)

I may have to learn how to make my own tilesets, eventually... (although it's amazing how much you can accomplish with the public tilesets, really!)

Eh, it took me about 13 months to get to the point of making my own tilesets. They're very simplistic, but still, it's nice to create your world from scratch like that.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 02, 2010, 22:55:53
I was already amazed at the news of another continent,

Don't get too excited - that area will not be very big, I think. No larger than 200, maybe even just around 100 screens.


Quote
Can't quite express the enthusiasm in words, so here's the same thing in smileys:
 O_o O_o O_o  :whoa: :whoa: :whoa:  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

LOL! Well, I'm glad to know you're *really* looking forward to my further achievements in KS level building. :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Strange Darkness on July 08, 2010, 05:47:27
? (why dont we have a puzzled smiley face?)

ive been gone waaaaay to long
i tried to read what was going on with this level but im confused
anyway... how the progress on this level? (seems to be growing quite splendly)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on July 08, 2010, 17:50:07
? (why dont we have a puzzled smiley face?)

:huh:

Code: [Select]
:huh:
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Salmoneous on July 08, 2010, 20:59:05
When more screens?  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: munchybot on July 09, 2010, 01:16:51
When more screens?  :)
Seconded
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 14, 2010, 20:43:46
Sorry, really busy with RL, so nothing new here. To tide you over, though, here's an old screenshot that those of you who've been to my old preview page may know, but which, I think, I've never posted hereabouts:

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

To get the full effect you really need to see it in motion, though.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on July 14, 2010, 20:55:15
Yay, a screenshot! And it's a very nice one :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Salmoneous on July 16, 2010, 00:05:45
Shit, that is among the most brilliant screens I ever seen.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on July 16, 2010, 00:39:42
Oh wow.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 17, 2010, 02:16:56
Oooh, what lovely feedback to come back to. :-)

Sadly, the screenshot as well as my levels, and all other screenshots etc. are offline for now. I've just been alerted to the possibility that apparently remnants of my nasty infection from last year may still lurk somewhere on my webspace even though I've deleted and completely rebuilt everything. So, in order to prevent whatever might still be there from causing more harm, I've taken my website and all my files offline again.

They may be offline for quite a while, sadly, as I have little time to take care of this matter now or in the near future. My levels are probably going to be hosted by friends until my webspace is officially declared safe by the hosting company, or until I can find a new hosting company (I've been meaning to move the site anyway; may as well do it now...ish. For a value of 'now' that may mean 'November'.)  I may sign up with flickr or some similar site for screenshot hosting in the interim.

Oh, and just to clarify: nobody actually got a virus alert when visiting my site, and all the code that I inspected looked fine, and there were no files I couldn't identify on there. So, as far as I can tell, there really *shouldn't* be anything nasty on there. But if there is even a tiny possibility that there's something basically invisible hiding somewhere, I can't leave my site online with a good conscience. Hence tonight's removal.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 19, 2010, 05:16:05
Latest screenshot of the map:
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Zydragazum on July 19, 2010, 05:26:43
It's grandiose! I can't wait to play it. I hope my level can achieve such dimensions. XD

Edit: Great to see that your levels are back on Knytt Levels! I replayed Falling Water. The moment I heard the theme from William and Sly, I totally knew you had some inspiration from that. :) Coincidentally, I played it a few days ago.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 07, 2010, 00:50:19
It's been a while...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on August 07, 2010, 01:30:14
Wow, pretty! <3
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: bulbapuck on August 07, 2010, 03:39:20
Ooooh, I *love* that first screen. The second one seems a bit repetitive, but I bet it looks far better in game.

Keep up the good work :) Any plans to release part 2 or will you wait to release the whole thing at once?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Salmoneous on August 07, 2010, 11:11:56
This is just getting more and more interesting. I wanna play it now!  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Headgrinder on August 07, 2010, 14:54:03
Oh goodie!  I love me some screenies!  Both are beautiful, but...

*puts on constructive criticism hat*

There seem to be way to many roots on the first screen.  It's like an overly repetitive pattern.
I like everything about the second screen except the wide areas of plain brick.  It's, again, too much repetitive pattern.  Any chance for a dead end room with something cool, or some alt bricks to add  variation?  

Those are both fantastic tilesets.  :D

           /@
          \   \
    _____> \
  (___O)     \
(_____@)    \
(_____@)     \
  (___o)_       \
            \       \

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 07, 2010, 16:24:00
Yeah, I'm not too fond of the many roots, either. Not so much because they're too many, but because they're too regularly spaced for something organic. Sadly, that is the only kind of corner piece that that tileset comes with. And the tileset I got the bricks from doesn't have a variant brick tile, either. I'm building a 600+ screen level using something like at least half the available tileset slots, and I have *no* experience making my own graphics, so I'm *not* going to start to extend my perfectionism to editing tilesets. This is already taking years (it's about 14 months now and I'm somewhere near the halfway mark, I think) - I don't dare to imagine how long it would take if I started editing tilesets! *g*

I could use some entirely different tile from the same tileset to take care of the repetitiveness problem, of course, but then that area would lose its character of, well, a place built from bricks. Which is what it's supposed to be. (Personally I don't mind the repetitiveness of the brick pattern. Brick walls are like that, and I like brick walls.) So, trying to build not-too-boringly-shaped tunnels in the brick area, and, of course, adding some nice vegetation, will have to suffice for variety there.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Headgrinder on August 07, 2010, 21:55:04
Well, who's tileset is it?  Can it be edited?  I'd be willing to make some mods for you if it was allowable.

I totally know what you mean about the time thing.  I've been working on tilesets only for 6 months now.   :sigh: :sick:

I probably shouldn't make this comment, because you are doing a great job and doing all you can.  My inner perfectionist won't let me let this go.   O_o  Real brick walls usually have wonderful variations in size, shape, color, texture that breaks up repetition.  I would just like to see something there, and as I said before, if the tileset can be modded, I'll do a little work for ya.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 08, 2010, 22:20:05
Hmm. Well, let's see.

1.) The bricks really don't bother me.
2.) This is a *very* small area in the level. Maybe five screens out of 600-700.
3.) I don't think it's so ugly as to make people want to tear their eyes out, or so boring as to make them fall asleep. ;-)
4.) Also, yes, there really are very 'regular' brick walls. Not every brick wall is old and picturesque. As it happens, this one *is* old - but the materials used aren't necessarily those *we* would associate with brick walls. It makes sense for it to look like this, within the context of the world I'm building here.
5.) There's *something* that could be done to almost every single tileset I'm using to make it fit my purposes ever so slightly better. Better not to open that can of worms.
6.) Also, one of the premises for starting Falling Water was: let's see what I can do with all these wonderful public tilesets - as provided. I like making do, sometimes.
5.) And lastly, but certainly not least: don't waste your time fixing very minor aspects of my level - go work on your *own* level, Headgrinder, because WE ALL WANT TO PLAY IT!!! SRSLY. I want to play your level really, really badly. *g*

Oh, also? @Everyone: About fifteen more screens and I'll be hitting the 400 mark. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Headgrinder on August 08, 2010, 23:50:13
As I suspected, I should have kept the pie hole shut.  :)  You have an emphatic way of breaking my super picky critique to powder.  I'll keep the pie hole shut.  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 08, 2010, 23:52:27
As I suspected, I should have kept the pie hole shut.  :)  You have an emphatic way of breaking my super picky critique to powder.  I'll keep the pie hole shut.  :)

Naaaah. Critique is fine. It's just that, well, I really don't think you need to bother adjusting the tileset for me, because, well, *I* don't mind the look of it as it is, and it's really really minor, and, most importantly, I really do want to play our level *urgently*, so I want you to focus on that! *g*
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yukabacera on August 09, 2010, 13:16:10
(Personally I don't mind the repetitiveness of the brick pattern. Brick walls are like that, and I like brick walls.)

I like brick walls too.

Then again, that's probably because I'm a very boring person and like utilitarian architecture. Oh well. "Form follows function", indeed.

=|=
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Antikythera on August 09, 2010, 13:45:31
5.) There's *something* that could be done to almost every single tileset I'm using to make it fit my purposes ever so slightly better. Better not to open that can of worms.@Everyone: About fifteen more screens and I'll be hitting the 400 mark. :-)

Haha, I wish I were like you... When something's wrong with a tileset, I go out of my way getting permission to fix it... When I would like a CO and I can't find a similar one, I draw it, and since I can't draw at all, it always takes a long time... I am a perfectionist with little skill at it's a bad combination lol.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 10, 2010, 00:52:37
and, most importantly, I really do want to play our level *urgently*, so I want you to focus on that! *g*

Err. Okay, with typos (Freudian slips?) like that, maybe I *should* let you edit the tilesets I'm using. Obviously my subconscious is conflating your work with mine already. :D

...

More to the point: Do not click on the attached image. I really, really shouldn't be posting it. And by that I mean, this is probably the most ill-advised screenshot-posting I've ever done. I just. Can't. Help. Myself. ARRRGH.

Seriously, this is from a secret area, and possibly the most beautiful area so far, or one of them anyway. If you are anything but a total spoilerwhore like me, you *don't* want to see more than a tiny thumbnail of this.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Purple Pineapple on August 10, 2010, 04:27:57
You can't stop spoiling your level, can you?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on August 10, 2010, 08:00:47
I clicked it to fullsize it, then desized it when I saw what you had written. I have yet to see more than the thumbnail.

Phew.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 14, 2010, 00:57:33
390
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 14, 2010, 21:48:12
I just made an important discovery: I can knytt while I'm talking on the phone. In fact, I can knytt exceptionally well while on the phone.

This may mean that my relationships with my family and friends will improve now. ;-) (I usually hate the phone, so I rarely use it to contact anyone.)

Screen 391 was created during a 45 minute phone conversation just now. (Yes, the screen took that long, too.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on August 14, 2010, 22:13:30
I clicked it to fullsize it, then desized it when I saw what you had written. I have yet to see more than the thumbnail.

Exactly what happened to me  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 14, 2010, 22:39:58
Don't worry about spoilers too much, folks. I vary my use of the tilesets I'm using in any given area a *lot*. So, when you've seen a screen, you know the basic combination of tilesets I use in that area - but you don't necessarily know what the entire area looks like.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 15, 2010, 01:35:45
Fredrik Andersson's Rough Sea Landscape and Smashy's All Purpose Tileset are surprisingly compatible... *and* versatile. I mean, they're versatile even when used alone, but if you combine them you get even *more* possibilities! (Nope, no screenshots of *those*.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 15, 2010, 18:28:20
Five screens to 400.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 04, 2010, 22:38:33
400.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on September 04, 2010, 23:57:58
Congratulations!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on September 05, 2010, 02:14:24
O_o
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Enavesca on September 12, 2010, 09:41:24
You have a great talent for environmental. I'm definetely looking forward to your level  :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on October 14, 2010, 19:54:38
(belated) Congratulations on hitting the 400 screens mark! I hope you're well and will eventually have more time to work on this :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: dave.germain on October 15, 2010, 08:50:14
400...Thats really impressive...You should release a little demo...just a taste ;)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on October 17, 2010, 18:44:06
^: There is a demo on knyttlevels.com, but you're not allowed to link to playable levels from preview threads.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on November 23, 2010, 20:01:20
Just went through this thread to look at the screens again. I really hope it's just temporary RL stuff you're going through, and that the level will eventually be finished and released. I'd hate to see such a large, inspiring, beautiful project go to the "never seen by anyone except the creator" bin the way Nurykabe's level went  :sad:
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Eris Constance on November 24, 2010, 05:09:40
I really am excited for this one! I played the demo before, and I really loved the way you did everything. :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: oskop on December 07, 2010, 11:11:07
I feel kind of bad for being exposed to so many screenshots just because I think it'll cut from the surprise in playing, so I'll try and avoid this thread, but I have to say you're doing some really really lovely stuff, and I loved playing through the first part that was posted (was it a beta?, I can't remember). Please don't let this be another great story that just disappear (like so many other out here...)!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: oskop on December 21, 2010, 05:26:56
Is this no longer in  motion?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 09, 2011, 21:52:42
Not dead. Overwhelmed with RL.

And don't worry: I'd post the unfinished thing, rather than let it lie around on my hard drive unseen, should I ever decide to give up on this.

But I won't give up, so that's entirely hypothetical. ;-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 20, 2011, 22:57:34
Short RL update: life's been crazy - after more than a year and a half of unemployment I've been offered two jobs at once. I've taken the more attractive one, which involves teaching university, among other scary things. It also involves relocating to a different city in pretty short order. Oh, and I'll be doing a PhD.

I greatly doubt that I'll have the time, or the peace of mind, to concentrate on knytting anytime in the next three or four months. After that, I kind of hope my life will settle down in a new kind of routine... which will hopefully involve some knytting again. Falling Water isn't dead.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on February 20, 2011, 23:07:07
Congratulations on RL. I will continue waiting patiently.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Feline Monstrosity on February 21, 2011, 13:46:53
That's not good enough Hmpf! Unemployment breeds creativitiy, it's not like you need money!

 :P2 In all seriousness, I wish you all the best in your new job.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Headgrinder on February 23, 2011, 13:18:41
Congrats on the RL achievements.  RL cannot be denied.  It's hungry.  Knytting is a creative flow of the soul that can be blocked for a time, but I know you'll be back when the damn bursts.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Widget on February 23, 2011, 13:54:50
Congratulations! It sounds pretty daunting but hopefully you'll find it really satisfying once you get over the nerves. Teaching is hugely rewarding, especially when you're dealing with students who are learning of their own choice. I hope the move isn't too stressful and you enjoy your doctorate. Would you mind if I asked what the broad subject of your thesis will be?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pick Yer Poison on February 24, 2011, 16:28:13
Just remembered I had an account on these forums...seems I've missed a lot. Congrats on the job.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on February 27, 2011, 23:13:12
Great to hear you're doing OK! Good luck with the job and the thesis!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on June 10, 2011, 15:20:47
So.. What ever happened to this? I remember fondly the memories of playing this, back when I was just some kid playing random video games and trying to help you out by beta-testing. A few days ago, I just randomly started working on a KS level again.. and found this once more..

I really hope you'd let me play whatever you've finished of this level, if you're not planning on finishing.
If you are, all the luck to you!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on June 12, 2011, 19:31:09
Hey there Yonowaaru! Nice to see someone's still interested... :-)

I said I'd post the unfinished level if I decided to give up on it, but I'm unlikely to give up on it, and I stand by that statement - both parts of it. In fact, now that I'm sort of settled into my new flat, and totally consumed by work (and completely traumatised by teaching - seriously, I suck. so. bad. at teaching, it's not even funny.) - I miss Juni and her worlds like crazy. Sadly, I can't even play other people's levels at the moment, as my proper computer died just after the move (just a coincidence, not a causal connection, I think), and the laptop I'm currently using is kind of too annoying to try to play anything on. Also, well, work is eating me alive, so there isn't really much leisure time.

I hope hope hope things will settle down some, sometime. I miss being creative - haven't been able to write, knytt, or make jewellery in *months* now. I'm getting all antsy without a creative outlet!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 15, 2011, 14:24:52
Two new screens! Yay!

Hopefully more soon.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: rainulous on July 15, 2011, 15:05:36
[excited] This isn't dead?!?!?! [/excited]
I've been waiting for this since I played the first part... then never heard of it again. Glad to hear it's still being worked on.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on July 17, 2011, 18:50:34
Six more screens since last post.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Headgrinder on July 18, 2011, 05:01:02
Oh man, your going at it!  :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Sendy on July 29, 2011, 20:51:19
Really hoping this level gets finished one day!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 07, 2011, 15:18:32
Two new screens. Yeah, I know, it's not much. But they're really pretty. ;-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on August 08, 2011, 07:11:13
Whenever you update this thread, I feel encouraged to work on my own projects. It's like I'm nourished by your fortitude. Keep it up.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 12, 2011, 00:48:49
Whenever you update this thread, I feel encouraged to work on my own projects. It's like I'm nourished by your fortitude. Keep it up.

Well, that's as good a reason as any to build two new screens!

So: two new screens. To nourish you with my fortitude some more. ;-)

Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Raicuparta on August 12, 2011, 13:14:59
I must be really stupid, I can't find any of these new screens you are talking about, what am I doing wrong :|
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on August 12, 2011, 17:11:30
I must be really stupid, I can't find any of these new screens you are talking about, what am I doing wrong :|

Oh, that's a misunderstanding, I'm afraid. "Two new screens" doesn't mean "two new preview screens". Rather, it means I've built two new screens. Basically, posting about my progress is my way of letting the forum know that I'm still working on this level - that it isn't dead/abandoned.

I posted way too many screenshots in the early phases of building this level, so I'm trying not to do that anymore. Screenshots from most of the areas I've built so far can be found all over this thread, though.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Strange Darkness on August 13, 2011, 07:11:58
Hang in there Hmpf, I'm cheering for you all the way!  C)p
Also this level is one of those levels i have been stalking for a while  :D
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on August 13, 2011, 18:17:58
Keep it up! My promise of beta-testing the next version is still valid, y'know!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 01, 2011, 01:02:50
two more screens
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 13, 2011, 13:50:05
Four new screens since last post.

Edited to add: Forgot to mention this earlier: one of those screens is the beginning of a new area. A really pretty one, I think. :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 13, 2011, 22:46:10
Plus two.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on September 14, 2011, 12:28:47
You must be really inspired, or just have more free time.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 14, 2011, 13:17:42
You must be really inspired, or just have more free time.

Slightly more free time. I was on holiday the last three weeks, but didn't get to knytt much because I was travelling around, meeting friends and so on. Now I'm back at work but staying with my parents for a week (most of my work can be done in just about any place), so I don't have to take care of all my household stuff in addition to my work, and thus have an hour or so a day that I can spare for knytting. Hopefully I'll be able to make a few screens every day as long as I'm here.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on September 14, 2011, 21:56:53
Haha, the newest verb: knytting!

It actually sounds kind of nice, unlike wii-ing or however you say that!

Also, keep at it! We're all still here to support you!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 15, 2011, 13:37:44
Haha, the newest verb: knytting!

Not that new, actually. It was invented by the_Jack (who, sadly, seems to have disappeared after a short and promising stay on the forum).

Quote
Also, keep at it! We're all still here to support you!

Awwwww. (Group hug!) ;-)

No, seriously. I'm grateful. And I wish I could work on this a bit faster than I am. Or at least give you more screenshots. But I've become too aware of the risk of oversaturating the forum with those...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: bulbapuck on September 15, 2011, 16:09:32
This thread always cheers me up :) Glad to hear you're still working on this!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 16, 2011, 00:29:44
This thread always cheers me up :)

Hearing that cheers *me* up! :)

Oh, and: two new screens. Again, one of them is the beginning of a new area, and at the moment that new area almost makes me choke with a kind of baffled gratefulness at its beauty. (Yeah, I know, self-praise... but, for what it's worth, a lot of the time when I'm working on my level it doesn't even feel like it's me doing the work. I just kind of go into a sort of trance and when I re-emerge something new, and sometimes quite beautiful, is there on the screen, and I'm amazed. That happened today, and I lovelovelove the result.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 17, 2011, 00:29:07
Two new screens. Nearing the completion of one of the last few larger areas in this part of the level.

I'm currently leaning towards publishing the rest of the level in three instead of in two parts again - which would mean releasing the "right" side of the world separately from the "left" side of it (and then the "top" later on). All the work I've done recently happened to be on the "right" side of the world, which means that - at least in terms of the building itself - that part is now fairly close to completion. (Still needs cats, knytts, dialogue, shifts and the like, of course.) The "left" side is rather more unfinished - maybe two thirds of that already exist, as compared to perhaps five sixths of the "right" part. (And the "top" part, for that matter, I haven't even started building yet - that was always supposed to be released as a separate part.)

The main problem with this plan is that I've grown uncertain about the cosmology/history behind my world, and that makes it difficult, at this point, to write any of the dialogue, especially the cat dialogue.

Hm.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 17, 2011, 13:56:05
Then again, if I released the left and right side of the world in one, I could hide the remaining keys and abilities in a less linear way, and the players would get a more far-ranging exploring experience out of it all. That's probably more fun than exploring two smaller, more linear parts of the world separately.

And, oh damn, I just realised I also still need to find music before I can even think of releasing even just one part. Lots of music. Arrgh.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on September 19, 2011, 09:33:47
Finding a lot of music that works together is tough. Good luck with that.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on September 22, 2011, 11:19:26
I have made some tracks myself, most of which can be found in the development sub. If you like it, you can PM me for some more.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 25, 2011, 03:09:53
4 more.

So tired....
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on September 26, 2011, 01:12:52
Just one.

Pretty. Purple.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Zydragazum on January 04, 2012, 18:42:37
You still have all of our support. :) Keep going, Hmpf.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on January 06, 2012, 15:39:45
Seconded! Keep working hard in the new year!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: munchybot on March 13, 2012, 07:35:53
Is this still in progress? I'd love to see some new previews or any kind of news! :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Oft99 on July 19, 2012, 01:57:59
I don't know why I've only decided to post just now, but I want you to know that I have been keeping an eye on this thread for a long time and I am very excited to see the results of your work, Hmpf. At one point a while back, some of the preview screenshots you posted were what inspired me to carry on with my current level project again at a time when I had paused it.
A random bit of advice; make sure you are backing up the file for this level that you are putting so much work in to, preferably on an external piece of hardware like a memory stick. You wouldn't want to lose it accidentaly one day whilst sweeping your computer's hard drive or something!
Sorry if the advice is a little redundant, it's just the sort of thing I would worry about.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 23, 2012, 20:46:48
Hey guys. This is still alive, believe it or not. I've stopped counting the screens though. It's not *that* much larger than the last time I posted here - a few dozen new screens, maybe. I had a huge life crisis that took up all my mindspace for a (long) while, so I didn't do much knytting. I've been easing myself back into it over the past few months, though. It feels like the actual building for part two is approaching completion (unless I decide to add another area or two). What's left is mostly the writing and "programming" (shifts and stuff). Unfortunately I'm currently kind of lost regarding the writing, lol.

Oh f***, and I just remembered I still need to take care of the music, too. Arrgh.

I've begun to learn playing the guitar... Hmm... Maybe I can record a minimalist guitar "soundtrack" of my own. :D

Oh, and don't worry, I keep several backups on different drives. ;-)

ETA: @OFT99: It makes me happy to hear that I have inspired you! :-)

Hmmm... I just went back through the last two pages of the thread; seems like I was just under 430 screens before I stopped counting. I'd say I'm probably in the 450s now, or possibly already beyond that.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on December 24, 2012, 13:28:37
Oh yay, this exists! I'd all but forgotten about this, but it's very nice to see you're still continuing this.
Oh, and I could lend a hand for some music; just PM me if you're interested.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on December 25, 2012, 16:12:37
Oh yay, this exists! I'd all but forgotten about this, but it's very nice to see you're still continuing this.
Oh, and I could lend a hand for some music; just PM me if you're interested.

I'm generally very interested in getting some help with this! I don't really have much of an idea, right now, of what your music sounds like, though - and I also haven't really decided what direction I'd like to go in with the music for this level. It seems unlikely to find a whole lot of free music that a) fits the game and b) goes well together, so I've been considering making all or at least some of the music myself for a while now. It would have to be very minimalist, of course, as I have zero experience. (And also, something relatively simple would be best for the game, I think. Most of the areas in it aren't huge, so if every area gets its own music, it would probably be best for that music to just be a very short and simple loop.) I also don't know what the appropriate programs/tools would be - unless I actually decide to go with the guitar, that is. I'd have to find out how to record etc. that, though, too.

Do you have a thread for your music here somewhere, so I could have a listen? And when I've done so and think that your stuff might work for my level, I could send you the level and you could see if it inspires you or something? :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on December 25, 2012, 19:36:07
I can't say for sure what kind of music I usually make, since it's quite varied. The easiest way would probably be my Souncloud page, since I've been updating that a lot lately: Here (https://soundcloud.com/yonowaaru)
Most of my songs are in fact pretty short. I don't have much on there as of guitar and similar things, but I think I have some songs that I never did upload there that might fit.

Either way, just take a look there and we'll say where it ends up.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 06, 2013, 00:56:28
I can't say for sure what kind of music I usually make, since it's quite varied. The easiest way would probably be my Souncloud page, since I've been updating that a lot lately: Here (https://soundcloud.com/yonowaaru)
Most of my songs are in fact pretty short. I don't have much on there as of guitar and similar things, but I think I have some songs that I never did upload there that might fit.

Either way, just take a look there and we'll say where it ends up.

I've listened to everything on your Soundcloud page now, and I think that kind of style doesn't quite fit - the pieces are too song-like and still too long for my purposes. I really only need very short, *very* minimal loops, as most of the areas in the level are really quite small - often less than ten screens. What I have in mind is barely even music, really. The more song-like/music-like the individual pieces are, the more it will jar to move from one area to the next, I think. So I'm looking more for... almost-silence interspersed with occasional musical bits? If that makes any sense. A soundscape rather than a soundtrack? (The only piece of music I used in the first part *is* quite song-like... but the more I think about it, the less I want to continue in that vein with the rest of the level.)

Would you like to have a look at the level, to get an idea of the kind of "landscapes" and area sizes and so on?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 06, 2013, 20:33:41
I've been pretty good about adding a couple of new screens almost every day recently, btw. This thing is officially back on track!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: oskop on January 06, 2013, 20:48:32
When do you think it will be done?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 06, 2013, 21:37:16
When do you think it will be done?

No idea. Music is still a major problem. Plus, I've decided to add another couple or so areas because the world was looking very... unbalanced, with all the stuff on the right side and far less on the left. So there's maybe 50 screens to build still? Bringing the total of this part up to something like 500 screens, I think.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Yonowaaru on January 06, 2013, 21:58:55
I understand what you're going for. To be honest, I hadn't really thought it would fit a game like Knytt Stories; after all, the original music wasn't really music in that sense, it always felt more experimental. I doubt I'll be able to reach that level of composing anytime soon, so unfortunately I won't be of much help I don't think. Of course, I'm still available for play-testing, and I cannot account for anything that happens in the future,.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Fubaka on January 07, 2013, 00:39:36
When do you think it will be done?

No idea. Music is still a major problem. Plus, I've decided to add another couple or so areas because the world was looking very... unbalanced, with all the stuff on the right side and far less on the left. So there's maybe 50 screens to build still? Bringing the total of this part up to something like 500 screens, I think.

If you need music, I may be of assistance.  I'll let you use it completely free of charge.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 07, 2013, 00:51:35
@Yonowaaru: :-( If you'd like to have a look at the unfinished level anyway, you're welcome, though! I know it's kind of super-spoilerific to look at an unfinished level, let alone one somewhat close to completion, but I could really use some "outside feedback". Three and a half years of working on this without ever exchanging any ideas about it with anyone is way too long.

@Fubaka: Could I have a listen to some of your stuff? Your offer is very welcome, but I have something fairly specific in mind. Something that's basically even more minimalist than the original Knytt Stories soundtrack, I think.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Fubaka on January 07, 2013, 02:50:39
Sure thing, my music is here: http://fubaka.newgrounds.com/ (http://fubaka.newgrounds.com/)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: sergiocornaga on January 07, 2013, 03:08:52
Hmpf, you could also see if lilmanjs (http://soundcloud.com/lilmanjs) is interested; sounds like the kind of style you're after to me.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Healy on January 07, 2013, 03:33:12
Also, if none of the offers here work out, you might try looking at Jamendo, a big music site where you can search for songs with a specific Creative Commons license and with the "minimalist" tag as well (I'd link to it, but it's very Flash-y and kind of annoying; hopefully you won't have too much trouble searching it). Also, have you ever played altf4 by 14 (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/14-%20altf4.fix2.knytt.bin)? It's a very obscure level (I don't think it was even advertised in the Level Release board), but it does a lot of interesting things with its score that are worth looking at, especially if you want to look at other examples of minimalist scoring.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: sergiocornaga on January 07, 2013, 04:50:53
Also, have you ever played altf4 by 14 (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/14-%20altf4.fix2.knytt.bin)?

Man, that level is gorgeous. I can't thank you enough for bringing it to my attention.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pie_Sniper on January 07, 2013, 12:03:01
If you decide you're still interested in a minimalist acoustic soundtrack, I would love to help out. (I play primarily violin, guitar, and mandolin.) Just for fun, I recorded a short tune inspired by this screenshot (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=1258.msg24274#msg24274), which you can listen to here (http://chirb.it/51a1Fs). (I apologize for the quality; I have access to real recording equipment if we were to collaborate.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 08, 2013, 17:54:35
Oh man, you guys. This is getting another kind of difficult now! Choices, choices... :D

Thank you so much for offering your help!

Fubaka & Pie_Sniper: I like your stuff! Yes, both of yours. Errm. I don't think these two styles would work well together, though... (or would they? What do you think? Everyone, feel free to weigh in, this is not my area of primary expertise.)

I'll have to think about this for a few days, I think.

Pie_Sniper, do you happen to have a few more things I could listen to? It's kinda hard to make a decision on the impression gotten from a single piece. I'm really intrigued by your instrumentation.


Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pie_Sniper on January 09, 2013, 03:15:27
Fubaka & Pie_Sniper: I like your stuff! Yes, both of yours. Errm. I don't think these two styles would work well together, though... (or would they? What do you think? Everyone, feel free to weigh in, this is not my area of primary expertise.)
Given the enormity of the level and the relatively small size of each area, it might be difficult for one person to produce the quantity of pieces you're looking for, depending on how much longer it will be in production. As is, I think the difference between the two styles would be a bit jarring, but they might work well together if we gave the acoustic parts an ambient-electronic backdrop.

Pie_Sniper, do you happen to have a few more things I could listen to? It's kinda hard to make a decision on the impression gotten from a single piece. I'm really intrigued by your instrumentation.
I actually don't write a lot of music, but it's something I very much want to do more. (This probably makes Fubaka the safer choice.) I'm working on another little piece that I can record when I get off of work tonight, and I can also put something together tomorrow morning. Expect a PM from me. :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Fubaka on January 09, 2013, 08:14:04
If you can't make a choice, it might be possible for Pie_Sniper and I to make some kind of collaboration and mix our styles together.  Whether or not he would be up to that is a different story.

At any rate, if you are planning on accepting my offer, you ought to send me your level in its current state, so I can gather info on what style would fit with your level.  I can double as a beta tester as well if you need one.   8)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 09, 2013, 15:42:21
Fubaka & Pie_Sniper: a collaboration between the two of you could be exciting, I think... Pie_Sniper just sent me another short piece, which I really loved. I'd really like to have you both on board - because I like both your styles, and because there are a *lot* of areas to score, and also because in some cases, one of the two styles might work better than the other, whereas in others a mix might work, etc. Obviously, though, you'd have to try and see if you can imagine collaborating with each other... if you can't, well, then I'll just have to make a decision after all. ;-)

A sensible first step would probably be to send you both the level as it is... If either of you decides after that that you'd rather not be involved, that's okay, too, of course. (As my webspace is currently out of commission, I need to find a filesending service, I guess... I'll look into that later today.)

Re: timeframe. This thing has been a project for three, three and a half years now, and I expect it to remain in active development for at least another six months, because - as-yet-unbuilt areas aside - there's also still house insides, dialogue, shifts, ambient sounds, etc. to take care of. I can't work on it a whole lot, most days, because my life is in serious upheaval at the moment (I'm losing my job, have to find a new one, move to another city, etc. etc. etc.) So the next few months look a bit unpredictable. But I do intend to keep working on it, now that I'm back on track.

Re: payment. I know neither of you requested any... and I can't really pay you properly... but if you need anything that a goldsmith could make... well, this here goldsmith would owe you a big favour. If you decide you want to be part of this project. :-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Fubaka on January 09, 2013, 17:51:25
Re: payment. I know neither of you requested any... and I can't really pay you properly... but if you need anything that a goldsmith could make... well, this here goldsmith would owe you a big favour. If you decide you want to be part of this project. :-)

My dear, you are paying with the level itself!  All I ask is that if I make music for your level, you must promise me it will be finished at some point in my lifetime. :P
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 09, 2013, 19:14:45
Re: payment. I know neither of you requested any... and I can't really pay you properly... but if you need anything that a goldsmith could make... well, this here goldsmith would owe you a big favour. If you decide you want to be part of this project. :-)

My dear, you are paying with the level itself!  All I ask is that if I make music for your level, you must promise me it will be finished at some point in my lifetime. :P

Well, if you're under 80, that shouldn't be a problem. ;-)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pie_Sniper on January 09, 2013, 19:18:11
I am actually really excited to do a collaboration! Of course no compensation is required. The screenshots you've posted have already gotten me to compose, something I rarely feel inspired enough to do successfully, and it was incredibly entertaining and fulfilling.

I'm glad you liked the second piece. :) I talked to my brother and he is on board to help me record and produce the tracks.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 09, 2013, 23:06:04
I am actually really excited to do a collaboration! Of course no compensation is required. The screenshots you've posted have already gotten me to compose, something I rarely feel inspired enough to do successfully, and it was incredibly entertaining and fulfilling.

I'm really happy to have inspired you! :-)

Quote
I'm glad you liked the second piece. :) I talked to my brother and he is on board to help me record and produce the tracks.

Oh wow! Awesome! Heeee, this level will have mile-long credits... dozens of tileset creators... music team... :-) It's beginning to feel almost professional, lol!


ETA: Annoyingly, I just noticed that apparently I messed up the first part's area of the level somehow, in the second part file. Not quite sure how it happened, but there's dialogues that are out of order now. :-(
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 11, 2013, 02:35:11
Really tired & about to go to bed, but I just wanted to post some (vague) numbers.

The bad news is that the numbers I posted in this thread usually count both parts together - so you kind of always have to subtract the 100-odd screens of the first part, if you want to know how big the second part will actually be (though of course the part of the world where the first part was set is still part of the level, too.)

The good news is that I'm probably already over 500, counting both parts. I don't quite remember where exactly on the map I stopped counting, but I do remember the number was over 430 then. Well, I just counted all the screens that I'm reasonably sure are fairly new, and got to a 65 or so. So I'm probably around or over 500 right now. As there's a few areas still to build, the total for parts one and two of Falling Water combined will therefore be in the low to mid 500s. 530, maybe?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: egomassive on January 11, 2013, 09:23:41
Xoft's Level Composer (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=165) can count rooms for you. I get the feeling you spend a lot of time counting rooms. I think you should use it for this one aspect, since it will increase your productivity, and I want to play this someday.

PS. Back up your level first. Level composer has bugs.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 11, 2013, 20:13:17
Xoft's Level Composer (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=165) can count rooms for you. I get the feeling you spend a lot of time counting rooms. I think you should use it for this one aspect, since it will increase your productivity, and I want to play this someday.

PS. Back up your level first. Level composer has bugs.

I'll look into that... though if it counts all duplicate screens as new screens my own method may be more accurate. (I don't always start counting from scratch - I have a list of the different areas, and whenever I finish a new area I count its screens and add it to the list, and do the total. My recent numbers have been a bit vague only because I misplaced my list, lol.) Thanks for the tip!

ETA: And, speaking of numbers: three new screens since yesterday - and I kind of have to force myself to stop. Shit is happening in RL, and knytting, it turns out, is a good painkiller.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Widget on January 12, 2013, 06:33:56
ETA: And, speaking of numbers: three new screens since yesterday - and I kind of have to force myself to stop. Shit is happening in RL, and knytting, it turns out, is a good painkiller.

I was always of the opinion that morphine was the holy grail of pain killers :P (j/k, of course).

Anything that can hold your attention on something external is good for pain, stress, anxiety... any numer of problems; and a great alternative to medicating/upping dosage if it works for you :)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 12, 2013, 20:26:34
Quickly: Just had a look at the level in the KSLC, and it said 656 screens. HOWEVER -- there are a lot of duplicate screens, "sketch/test" screens, empty sky screens and the like, so I think it's safe to subtract *at least* 100 if not more. In fact, 550 still seems suspiciously high a number...
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 12, 2013, 22:37:07
Okay. 520 exactly. This is an authoritative number. Don't ask me how I know.

(If you do ask: you can easily delete all unnecessary screens with one hand while eating with the other... and then let KSLC count the result. :D)

ETA: Map as of today. Only actual playable screens, no redundant screens etc. Circled in red is (very roughly) the area you've already seen if you've played part one.

Man, this is still so small. I wish it was bigger. I'd love to build something that players could run around in for hours. (Of course, once I add part 3, it probably *will* be properly huge...)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 14, 2013, 22:08:19
+5
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Fubaka on January 15, 2013, 00:50:21
I'm glad you have a definite measure of progress on your level.  Mine, on the other hand, while quite large even without them, consists mainly of duplicate screens due to the way my conversation system works.  If I gave everyone a screen count on my level, it would be wildly inflated, even though it's technically true  :P.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: ixMarcel on January 15, 2013, 22:07:10
It's good to hear, that You're working at this level. I liked it very much!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on January 31, 2013, 00:19:18
+5 since the last post, I think. RL has been insisting I pay a lot to attention to it, urgh. ETA: "It", in that sentence, being RL, not the level, just to clarify that.

So the total is 530 now.

I've also improved maybe 5 or so of the older screens.

(No new screenshots because I overdid it with the screenshots in the earlier pages of the thread. So no new screenshots until completion, I think.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Polana on January 31, 2013, 12:19:36
Oh, I think that there were just right amount of screenshots in the earlies pages. I really enjoy looking at them. There is nothing worst than level preview without pictures.
Anyway, keep continuing work on Falling water and good luck in your life.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 01, 2013, 00:16:49
Oh, I think that there were just right amount of screenshots in the earlies pages.

Ah, but you see, some disappeared - there were a lot more, but then my website went down, and all the pictures I'd only linked from there were gone. This has reduced the number of preview screens to a slightly less unhealthy number. ;-)

Quote
Anyway, keep continuing work on Falling water and good luck in your life.

I willl, and thanks. :-)

Also: +3, today.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 01, 2013, 00:55:35
(And I'm dying to post screenshots, really. But... nnnnngh. Gotta stay strong.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Headgrinder on February 02, 2013, 12:01:37
So about how much bigger is this than the preview now?

Glad your plodding ahead.  Congrats on sticking to it.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 02, 2013, 18:32:34
The preview was around 100 screens - 110? So the new part is about four times that (almost exactly!).

There's two areas left to build (probably small ones, though), plus a bunch of house interiors and a few extra screens in a few places where it's recently occurred to me there should be another tunnel branching off or a 'hidden' room or something. So there's maybe 60 screens to build yet? Which would bring the total for parts 1 and 2 combined up to a neat 600.

(And at some point I still have to

- write a lot of dialogue/monologe, and
- script all the shifts, arrgh.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 03, 2013, 00:56:32
Latest screen count: 536.

(I'm sorry, but I need to keep count somewhere, and this place has the advantage of also showing people that this is still moving forward.)
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Headgrinder on February 03, 2013, 03:20:07
Wow.  Very cool.  Looking forward to it.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Hmpf on February 03, 2013, 16:38:17
539
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: rainulous on February 18, 2013, 20:27:38
Is there a more recent count? I'm excited!
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Knatt on March 30, 2013, 16:13:50
Are you still working on it? I played the demo and it was great, can't wait for more  C)p
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Strange Darkness on March 31, 2013, 05:42:55
Good to see this still in development since that time long ago  C)
Although I have been away for a while and haven't touched Knytt Stories in a while.
This is making me look forward to playing the game again.

All the best.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: juhj on September 05, 2013, 17:11:39
Are you still busy with it?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: yohji on January 21, 2016, 22:23:09
I'm a bit heartbroken to see this abandoned. Pretty sure I've thought about the concept and some of the screens every now and again once or twice a year... I seem to recall - hopefully wrongly - that hmpf complained of some RL troubles somewhere. If that's true, I really hope those problems didn't get the better of her.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Fubaka on January 22, 2016, 04:24:48
Hmpf has posted recently. I don't believe she's completely abandoned us.
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: ixMarcel on January 25, 2016, 19:50:18
Hmpf has posted recently. I don't believe she's completely abandoned us.
I don't think 3 years ago is that "recently". Or are you talking about some other posts than on this forum?
Title: Re: [Environmental] Falling Water
Post by: Pie_Sniper on February 05, 2016, 20:40:41
For those still wondering, I contacted Hmpf a few months ago by email. She said she's been very busy with work, and while she's made a small amount of progress on Falling Water, she's having trouble with writer's block and finding time for it among other projects. She gave no indication of when the project might be completed or even return to a state of steady development, but she hasn't given up on it as of October.