Nifflas' Support Forum

Released Games => Smaller games => The Mushroom Engine => Topic started by: Mecha the Slag on June 22, 2009, 19:13:48

Title: Braid
Post by: Mecha the Slag on June 22, 2009, 19:13:48
I see someone has been playing Braid

specifically someone has been enjoying World 1 and the ending of Braid
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Razzorman on June 22, 2009, 20:02:11
Because no other game than Braid can ever have time-based gameplay. 9_9
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Hempuli on June 22, 2009, 22:51:19
I don't know about Nifflas, but I have never seen anything else but screenshots of Braid. I'm still waiting to get to play it, and don't want to spoil the fun.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: googoogjoob on June 23, 2009, 07:43:37
Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 23, 2009, 07:33:23
Quote from: Razzorman on June 22, 2009, 20:02:11
Because no other game than Braid can ever have time-based gameplay. 9_9
It's not time-based, it's almost a direct copy. Save that you are Mario and there are coins.

Uh, this game is just linear backwards-in-time. Braid isn't so simple. Also, the player has absolutely no control over/influence on the flow of time in this game, unlike in Braid.

Really, time isn't really even a game mechanic in this game. You could have a Mario-analog protagonist who has fragile knees and the ability to fly, and replace the mushrooms with trampolines or springs or something, and this game would be basically the same- it's just the explanation behind the mechanics that brings in time.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: B.M. on June 23, 2009, 08:04:28
let's look at braid:

mario clone (johnathan blow even admitted to it)
time-manipulation (specifically, going back in time and its effect on the world) gameplay
kind of a mind screw

let's look at jump on mushrooms:

mario clone
time-manipulation (specifically, going back in time and its effect on the world) gameplay
kind of a mind screw

also, as mecha has been trying to point out, the final world of braid, (world 1) has a level in which
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

[mod]we have spoiler tags for that[/mod]
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: googoogjoob on June 23, 2009, 08:55:50
Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 23, 2009, 07:58:44
Quote from: googoogjoob on June 23, 2009, 07:43:37
Uh, this game is just linear backwards-in-time.
Braid World 1 (the final world).

That's only a fraction of the entire game. And even there, the player has some influence on the flow of time.

Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 23, 2009, 07:58:44
Quote from: googoogjoob on June 23, 2009, 07:43:37
Braid isn't so simple. Also, the player has absolutely no control over/influence on the flow of time in this game, unlike in Braid.
Had it not been for the default ability to wind back time, World 1 of Braid would be exactly this.

Had it not been for the default ability to wind back time.

Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 23, 2009, 07:58:44
Quote from: googoogjoob on June 23, 2009, 07:43:37
Really, time isn't really even a game mechanic in this game.
Yet its the main selling point.

I mean that time doesn't factor into the actual gameplay nearly so deeply as it does in Braid.

That is, this game is more about platforming with a weird gimmick worked into it, while Braid is a gimmick and a set of subgimmicks worked into a platformer. (At least, this is my impression.) The fact that the player can actually actively manipulate time in Braid is the biggest, most important difference.

Also: all platformers are going to be Mario clones to varying degrees, just as all FPSs are Doom clones to varying degrees. The fact that two platformers both explicitly acknowledge the specific influence of Mario doesn't really make them unusual.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Hempuli on June 23, 2009, 12:12:09
As I mentioned before, I have not played Braid and I don't know how the first world in Braid works. I doubt though that it's the same as in JoM and TME, since no-one else has even compared them before. And even if it was, I don't see a point in even mentioning that; what would it matter?
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: googoogjoob on June 23, 2009, 22:51:15
Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 23, 2009, 22:21:15
it feels like someone played Braid, looked at one piece of the game (specifically the final world) and figured "this is a good idea, I will make a game that rips this off".

As B.M. pointed out, Jump on Mushrooms is extraordinary equal to Braid. Specifically the ending. Coincidence?

I mean even the fireballs remind a lot of Braid. Braid's fireballs puff out once they hit a wall, so does this game's, yet normal Mario fireballs don't even collide with walls except for in NSMB where they just fade out on collision.

Quote from: Hempuli on June 23, 2009, 12:12:09
As I mentioned before, I have not played Braid and I don't know how the first world in Braid works.

Nifflas may have played Braid, but all the basic concepts in this game are in Jump on Mushrooms, which predates Nifflas's involvement.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Nifflas on June 24, 2009, 17:05:42
The mushroom engine is based on Hempuli's "Jump on Mushrooms", so I shouldn't be credited for the idea in either case, I just did a new version because I loved Hempuli's game. The main difference between "The Mushroom Engine" and the original "Jump on Mushrooms" is that the time doesn't reverse before you reach the beginning of the first level, which was also something Hempuli requested me to change. By this reason, I only want to be credited as the programmer, Hempuli is the one with the ideas and the level design!

I have played Braid and love that game, Hempuli who have created the original Jump on Mushrooms haven't played Braid, but even if he actually had and got the entire idea from that I wouldn't see a problem with that. I totally like the idea about clones, demakes, and games heavily inspired by other games. In fact, no matter what you look at in my games, almost everything is taken from something else. The design of several rooms of the castle in Knytt is taken from Ico, the powerup pinpointer is from Shadow of The Colossus, the idea about patterns on surfaces in Knytt and KS is taken from Super Mario World, the ball material changing in WaDF and Night Game is inspired by Ballance, and Night Game is basically more or less a 2D take on Marble Madness with physics... The bonus song in Knytt (bouncy) is heavily inspired by "Nicotine" by Dr. Rockit, and a song underground near the castle in Knytt is inspired by one of the songs in the Samorost 2 soundtrack. The way I use ambiance sounds is something I learnt from Ico, and the way I use music in Knytt and Knytt Stories comes from Ballance. To be completely honest, I've never been that innovative.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: JC Grim the 'crete reaper on June 25, 2009, 01:23:50
I guess it would be very simple to point fingers at Jonathan Blow, and accuse him of ripping off "The Golden Man", a book by Phillip K. Dick about a human mutant with the power to see any possible outcome from actions he makes in his own life, which was written in 1954. :crazy:

Or we could possibly point fingers at Paramount Pictures for the very same reason, in the creation of their movie, "Next" which was released on April 27, 2007. That would be 1 year, 4 months, and 9 days before Braid came out.

We can point fingers all day, but bottom line is everything repeats itself over time, even if it was an original idea to the person who made it at the time.

I don't hear anyone ridiculing I. M. Pei, creator of the Louvre, for copying the Egyptians...
 :huh:
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Razzorman on June 25, 2009, 11:07:44
Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 23, 2009, 22:21:15
it feels like someone played Braid, looked at one piece of the game (specifically the final world) and figured "this is a good idea, I will make a game that rips this off".

As B.M. pointed out, Jump on Mushrooms is extraordinary equal to Braid. Specifically the ending. Coincidence?

I mean even the fireballs remind a lot of Braid. Braid's fireballs puff out once they hit a wall, so does this game's, yet normal Mario fireballs don't even collide with walls except for in NSMB where they just fade out on collision.
Hempuli (the guy behind the game, if you didn't know) even admitted, twice in fact, that he has not played Braid. This means that any similarities between the two games are purely coincidental, and that no amount of your whining will ever change anything.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: googoogjoob on June 26, 2009, 11:33:27
Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 26, 2009, 11:04:25
Quote from: Razzorman on June 25, 2009, 11:07:44
Hempuli (the guy behind the game, if you didn't know) even admitted, twice in fact, that he has not played Braid.
anyone can say anything

If you're implying that Hempuli is actually lying, then this topic simply can not go anywhere. (Or rather, something like, "You did X!" "I did not do X." "You're lying." "I'm not lying." "You're lying." Etc.)
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Razzorman on June 26, 2009, 16:11:48
I have been around here for a good while now, and Hempuli has never seemed to me like the kind of person who would do that.
I guess I could make a long post trying to defend him, but that wouldn't lead anywhere, so I'll just get to the point; What's the point of leading an intelligent discussion with someone who wont listen to you?
If you already made up your mind about this game ripping of Braid, there is no point in trying to convince you otherwise.
We have shown you the facts, and you persist to ignore them, or at least, try to find a way around them.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Mecha the Slag on June 26, 2009, 23:06:32
you seem to make the assumption that because it directly takes elements from another game makes it bad

which I never stated
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: googoogjoob on June 26, 2009, 23:33:11
A game directly taking elements from another game is not a bad thing. Making and then arguing in favor of a demonstrably false assumptions is.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Nifflas on June 27, 2009, 15:05:11
Quote from: Mecha the Slag on June 26, 2009, 23:06:32
you seem to make the assumption that because it directly takes elements from another game makes it bad

which I never stated
I don't care if you think it makes it bad or not. Implying that Hempuli is lying is an attitude we don't need here.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Hempuli on June 30, 2009, 18:25:01
What makes me wonder is why I would lie about such thing as if I have played Braid or not. :S
Oh well.
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Shawnachu on August 12, 2009, 04:15:59
I'm gonna throw in my own two cents for actually playing the game.

Spoiler: HUGE SPOILERS (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Braid
Post by: Hempuli on August 17, 2009, 13:58:40
Quote from: shawnachu on August 12, 2009, 04:15:59
I'm gonna throw in my own two cents for actually playing the game.

Spoiler: HUGE SPOILERS (click to show/hide)

Had to read these spoilers to see if there's actually something same in the way TME works compared to Braid. I agree that it sounds like the World 1 works quite much like TME, but there's also at least one huge difference:
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)