Nifflas' Support Forum
Being Creative => Creativity Support => Topic started by: Nifflas on April 10, 2010, 13:39:51
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When I created Knytt and Knytt Stories I'd recommend Multimedia Fusion 2 to everyone, but with the release of Saira and the development of this new game, I've just ran into way too many instability issues, particularily ones that is only reproducable on some particular systems. MMF2 has this huge pile of pre-compiled extensions, more than almost any similar product can offer, and yet most of them have at least a handful of features that doesn't work perfectly. There's too much to test, and a too small community to test it all, and as every extension is pre-compiled and closed source there's no way to fix them when something doesn't work. Ideally, I need a much more solid product to develop games with (one with a more powerful core and without the "pre-compiled pile"), and although MMF3 is comming and could in theory be all that, I'm dead scared they're going to keep it backwards compatible (so every currently feature must be supported, when what they really need to do is remove features), which means they'll just keep building on top of the current pile.
I might revert to MMF3 when it is out, but before that I need to switch. Problem is, I don't know what to switch to. Torque Game Builder? Unity? Something else? I don't have time to do the work in C++ since I need to do graphics, level design, sound and music too. Do you have any experience with game developing software? What would you recommend, and why?
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I was about to reccomend Microsoft Visual C# but I see you don't want the hassle of code (I don't either). I can't think up anything off the top of my mind. I could say Game Maker but I don't know that much about it.
But I do think your mention of Unity has helped me! :D
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I personally love Construct (http://www.scirra.com/). It's still technically in beta, but it's rather stable now and definitely worth a look. It's also open source, and the plugin developers seem to be charing that mindset, although there aren't actually many third-party plugins/behaviours at the moment. The C++ SDK is pretty good too; I made a PC speaker plugin (http://www.scirra.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=6095), as an example.
It also has a full integrated physics engine with box, ellipse, and arbitrary (user-drawn) collision masks, Python (which I don't like myself but is supposed to be a nice scripting language), and it's fully hardware-accelerated from the start (I understand that MMF2 only added this recently and as a hack to the existing engine).
It's missing Online and Joypad (apart from Xbox 360) plugins, but I can think of nothing else to fault.
You might like to take a look at Game Maker, but most stuff requires you to use a C++-style scripting language, so. It does have tons of plugins and extensions though.
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I don't think neither game maker or construct will beat MMF2.
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Both of them beat the crap out of MMF2's poor core programming options. Construct's event system is many times more powerful, and scripting is used to really take advantage of Game Maker. Construct is at the other hand really unstable at this point, and since I'm having major problems with stability issues in MMF2, I can't switch to that. Also, Construct is attempting to make everything 1-based which is wrong, objectively. The developers should know better than that. Finally, they're making the same problem as with MMF2, where extensions are pre-compiled C++ which will in the end add up to the "pile". In my world, a serious game development tool does not need pre-compiled assets unless they adds a new functionality that can absolutely not be accomplished with the program's own code language. Anything else just means the tool have a bad qualifier/class/widget system, and MMF2 greatly suffers from that.
Also, I'm interested in exporting to more formats than just PC Windows.
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You might try Flash or blender. Both are used to create games, although blender has a steap learning curve, and am not entirely sure it can work for games. Flash will certainly work.
Other suggestions will involve programming one way or the other, and it basically comes to this: if you're using a tool to make a game, it will always be unstable or limited in some way.
Have you considered hiring or teaming up with a programmer?
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I can never afford to hire someone. However, I don't agree with your statement either. Even indie teams of several people often use tools like Unity these days, I've met more people from indie companies that uses tools like that than companies who program their games from scratch, and I've met a lot of professional developers. And their products are more stable and efficient than mine, because they are using better products.
Of course I'm ready to do programming to some degree, I can learn a good scripting language, for example learn to use C# in Unity or Torquescript for Torque Game Builder. Flash & Actionscript would be an option, but without hardware accelerated graphics it's not really fast enough for anything like Saira. I'm just saying I'm not willing to build the game up from scratch in C++, I haven't got that amount of time.
I might actually give blender a chance.
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I think you misunderstood me.
I meant to say: If I want to suggest something else, it would be a programming language. This also comes due to me not knowing many game developing tools.
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I personally do like Game Maker myself, although I might be a tad biased. The extensions for Game Maker are (to my knowledge) editable in the GML (Game Maker Language), the same language used in the main program. GML is, of course, its own language, and you'd have to learn it to use it, but it was fairly easy for me to pick up, and you can always refer to the ever-useful help file, something I often do when I'm programming with it.
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Game Maker is very clumsy, don't use it for serious projects. Then again, I'd say the same thing about MMF.
Of all the things mentioned, I'd recommend Torque. It's efficient and cross-platform, and there have already been many successful games made with it.
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Nifflas, I am sure you did already, but besides asking us and other colleagues in the industry, try some specialized forums (tigsource, gamedev...).
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Ok, i'm a bit biased like PickYerPoison, but i highly recommend GameMaker. It's inbuilt programming language is quite powerful, but has a simple syntax (similar to that of JavaScript). Also, for 2D games, is Torque Game Builder (TGB) developed by GarageGames, but I can't say that I ever have used it.
Finally, if you feel like taking that extra step, Unity is an extremely powerful 3D game dev engine, and uses simple syntax to get the job done. quite a lot of the editing can be done using it's WYSIWYG interface. Oh, yeah, did i mention? the basic version is 100% free, forever, no time limit. A good way to get your head around it before you buy the full package C)p. (yes, i do have unity as well, so i'm a bit biased on that one, too)
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I've been using MMF ever since I went to a computer camp and learned about it. I've never had a problem, though I've never made such big games as you, Nifflas. For physics though, I don't think MMF is a wise choice. Construct would be better IMO but I've never evened tried it. And it's not out of beta either. :P
On another note, ACWL what does premium Unity have that the free version does not?
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Unity looks like a tool I might use for creating games of my own. Thanks for telling about this.
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The downside is that it's 3D, so there's a chance Torque Game Builder is a better choice for me. However, I do have one simple 3D game in mind I've always wanted to do even since before I created Within a Deep Forest, and Unity might be just the right thing for it.
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On another note, ACWL what does premium Unity have that the free version does not?
Among other things, it removes the Unity splash screen you get in your games from the free version, allows you to get addons for game dev for other consoles (iphone, wii, etc), and allows yo to use fancier resources.
However, I do have one simple 3D game in mind I've always wanted to do even since before I created Within a Deep Forest, and Unity might be just the right thing for it.
Unless it is going to be commercial and make a bunch of cash, unity might not be the best bet, seeing as the free version puts a big 'Powered by Unity' splash screen up when the game opens. Also remember (i have hit this wall before) that as soon as you add that extra dimension, yo have to write at least 10x the amount of code, and spend 10x as long on building it =(
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that as soon as you add that extra dimension, yo have to write at least 10x the amount of code, and spend 10x as long on building it =(
True to that!
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Unity doesn't have Linux support...:(
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Unfortunately not, however it does hold the ability, even with the free version, to both run and build for mac and PC.
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Blender game engine would not be ideal for 2d games. Ive used it a lot.
pros
It is really good for people who do not want to learn too many programming languages, and can be completely programmed with "logic bricks".
If Nifflas can learn how use the 3d modeling part of blender, intergrating it into a game would be extremely easy. Just put all the parts together, assign physics and controls, and the basic game is done!
It uses Bullet Physics, so making a game with physics is very easy.
Its functionality can be extended with python scripting.
cons
Because blender was originally made for 3d modelling, the blender game engine isn't as usable as it could be.
An example is that making a particle system in modeling is different from making a particle system in game engine.
Also, textures do not work the same in game engine mode than they do when rendered.
Other
It has many different Python script extensions, but not enough to cause problems. Most of these are Import or Export scripts, but some are useful, such as:
City generator
Nut and bolt creator
tree generator
and a few other useful ones.
These scripts are NOT compiled, just .py, so you can edit the scripts and add your own parts to it.
it is pretty powerful, but i am not entirely sure how stable it is.
It is good to get into, because there is a script to export to flash 3d.
As someone said, it has a very steep learning curve, it took me ages to figure most of the stuff I know out.
Overall, I recommend it, as it is simple to make a 3d game, and it can then be exported to a runtime.
Oh yes, its multiplatform.
Linux
Windows
Mac
Solaris
Irix
On an entirely different note, good luck with finding a good game development platform. :D
I have used blender extensively C)p
EDIT: here is a really good video to show the large features of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pc9JWYuUa2o
and here is a full game made in blender
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Canbxj0RBTk
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The downside is that it's 3D, so there's a chance Torque Game Builder is a better choice for me. However, I do have one simple 3D game in mind I've always wanted to do even since before I created Within a Deep Forest, and Unity might be just the right thing for it.
You can make 2D using 3D. :) Or semi-3D. By fixing the Z axis and only move the X and Y axis, you have a 2D game. :)
In fact, if the Z axis remains 0, and you give the depth only 1 pixel, it will look 2D even more.
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I know, but it can still be more messy than in a 2D environment. However, since I have a simple 3D game in mind I'd like to do, I'm thinking perhaps it's the best idea after all.
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You know what they say, trying never is a bad thing, because it allows you to learn.
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You know what they say, trying never is a bad thing, because it allows you to learn.
True to that!
LP you made me interested in Blender too, I don't really want to spend $1200 on Unity... :oops:
EDIT: What do you know in far as watermark/splash screen in Blender? Can you buy a full version and have no watermark or splash screen?
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LP you made me interested in Blender too, I don't really want to spend $1200 on Unity... :oops:
Huh? I thought unity was "only" 300$.
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Blender is completely free and always will be, and it doesn't show a splash screen.
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Is it just me or are these all 3d programs?
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Is it just me or are these all 3d programs?
Its just you, but they too are 3D programs X)
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Is it just me or are these all 3d programs?
Blender and Unity are 3D programs, but torque apparently has a 2D mode too.
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as Razz said, blender and Unity are 3D, and torque has two products: Torque3D and Torque Game Builder, which is 2D.
Indeed, Unity Pro is $1200
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$1200 :shocked:
i wouldn't even pay that much for a laptop.....
anyway, Blender is open source and free, and I can't see any water mark?
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oh yeah some programs can seem to be at a ridicilous high prize. But then programs like these can make a living for you. So yeah.
I'd say get pirated version of whatever you are getting.
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I'd say get pirated version of whatever you are getting.
*gasp!* I can't believe you said that on a public forum! :O Nah, I'm kidding. :P Though I think if you get Unity pirated it might have compatibility issues with licenses and stuff.
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Though I think if you get Unity pirated it might have compatibility issues with licenses and stuff.
Can't say i've had any problems with unity pro.... :shifty:
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<offtopic> Opensource ftw!! ;) :D</offtopic>
lets get back on topic. :oops:
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Judging from the fact that Iji was created in Game Maker, Spelunky was also created in Game Maker, and more other noteworthy games were created in Game maker, I would suggest...
...Game Maker! You guessed it!
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Game maker games tend to have frameskip issues, from my experience (no it's not my computer's fault).
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It's not that Game Maker can't make good games. It's that Game Maker games are universally really, really resource-inefficient, so graphics and physics have to be pretty simple. Windows-only, too.
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Right. Recent versions of wine were to run all the game maker games I tried them on, albeit without sound effects (background music worked fine) and some window issues (I don't know if these were due to my window manager's tiling or whatever but they were all fixed by using the "emulate virtual desktop" thing).
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I think it would be better if I sticked to something multi-platform though, it's a more accessible way for people than running emulators or wine.
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I am completely ignorant on this subject.
I want to say, though, that I used to think Game Maker was a bad tool until I found Glum Buster (http://www.glumbuster.com/) and, later, Spelunky. I can really imagine a Nifflas game being made with it.
However, it is not compatible with Linux, which is an issue for me. Blender would be great, from that point of view and the fact that it is free/open-source just makes it more attractive, as I think we should all embrace this philosophy.
I am very glad to see Nifflas go multi-platform. :)
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Judging from the fact that Iji was created in Game Maker, Spelunky was also created in Game Maker, and more other noteworthy games were created in Game maker, I would suggest...
...Game Maker! You guessed it!
Just to back you up, VDWeller, I do believe Cave Story was also made in Game Maker, but I don't know this for sure.
And I think that Game Maker's good for both beginners and advanced programmers, but, if you're really advanced, you should program it from scratch. :)
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Just to back you up, VDWeller, I do believe Cave Story was also made in Game Maker
I'm quite certain that's not true, as I've never heard about that anywhere, all game maker games (at least the ones I've seen) have a loading screen and the ones I have tried don't run on WINE.
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it is possible to remove the loading screen, however Cave story was almost definitely not made in GM. The style of the game is similar to that of MMF2, or a from-scratch coding.
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Cave Story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cave_Story): On the right side of the page, you'll notice it says "engine: custom"
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Pixel's roommate was a coder. He wanted to make a computer game, so his roommate taught him a programming language. He first started with displaying a character, then gradually built it up into cave story!
no wai is it done in game maker :sick:
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Let's not forget, however, that Pixel had other games before Cave Story. At the very least, there is an IkaChan reference in the IronHead boss.
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Judging from the fact that Iji was created in Game Maker, Spelunky was also created in Game Maker, and more other noteworthy games were created in Game maker, I would suggest...
...Game Maker! You guessed it!
I never said that cave story was made in GM. It wasn't made in GM.
Anyway let's not stray too much off the topic, assuming of course there's anything else useful to add.
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Can I recommend LOVE?
www.love2d.org (http://www.love2d.org)
It's written in C++ but uses Lua (a very efficient yet easy to use/learn scripting language)
It's also cross-platform (windows/linux/mac)
I've used it a few times myself, it's got a great community over there and is constantly being improved.