Nifflas' Support Forum
Being Creative => Development Showcase => Topic started by: DustinCartwright on February 17, 2010, 20:24:16
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Hey all,
If you remember or heard of my Knytt Stories project called "The Morbid Mill" -- it was a college project my friends Ian and Thomas were assisting me in. The project was voted best in the class and the teacher, Danial Young, wanted me to put together a video to be looped in their lobby's TVs along with other student works
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4sXpKweHY8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4sXpKweHY8)
I wanted to share the video with you all as well, perhaps get some feedback. Please be professional and respectful
This is my first knytt Stories project, so you'll notice all the art and tilesets are custom, we focused on the gameplay first and ran out of time, but it came out well regardless
A download link for the game will be provided at a later date if anyone is interested
The game is catagorized as "Hard/Very Hard, Challenge"
The video does NOT show the story or cutscenes we added in, just the gameplay for show
All the music and most of the backgrounds are custom, the tilesets are the only things I left default -- other than the boat that EgoMassive graciously let me use
Please also note the video itself is not finished, but will be at a later date
Thank you!
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Loks nice. You have managed to use default tilesets to create a visually nice level, well done!
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Loks nice. You have managed to use default tilesets to create a visually nice level, well done!
Thanks! Someone else mentioned that as well, I remember designing 2D and 3D maps for Amaze Entertainment years back, I guess that experience stuck with me :)
I did, however, borrow a graphic from EgoMassive which may be the only custom tileset -- though I DID use custom backgrounds and plenty of custom music
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this looks like a challenging level! :D
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this looks like a challenging level! :D
oh, it is, haha 8)
I gave the game beta to 20 friends, 10 of them are NOT gamers -- none of those completed it, they gave up less than half way through if at the very start
5 of them were casual gamers, only 2 finished -- and it took them 2 or 3 hours of gameplay
5 of them were hardcore gamers like myself, all of them finished in 45 minuites to an hour
Thus it was catagorized as "Hard/Very Hard"
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5 of them were hardcore gamers like myself, all of them finished in 45 minuites to an hour
Thus it was catagorized as "Hard/Very Hard"
O...M...G!!!!!!!!!! :whoa:
Just watched the video... and I think that if you search in a dictionary for the definition of "Lunatic", you will find this level O_o
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5 of them were hardcore gamers like myself, all of them finished in 45 minuites to an hour
Thus it was catagorized as "Hard/Very Hard"
O...M...G!!!!!!!!!! :whoa:
Just watched the video... and I think that if you search in a dictionary for the definition of "Lunatic", you will find this level O_o
Aw, it's not that hard, haha -- well, maybe in one or two spots...
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For lack of a better term, I call it Seems-easier-because-of-practice Syndrome. It's when the author of a level thinks their level is easier than it actually is because the author has played it over and over in the process of making it. Believe me, it effects all of us.
You need more savepoints. Enemy-based challenges in a room shouldn't require repeating. If players have to repeat frustrating, luck-based challenges because they got killed in the next room, you can expect that several will just say "to hell with this level" and quit.
The few exceptions to this rule would be levels such as Spiral. Sometimes replaying rooms causes you to revise your strategy and find more reliable ways to beat it. But your level needs to have freedom of choice for this to work, and it also must be carefully structured to invite players to try different things out. But even then, it's hit and miss. This is especially the case if it's a big level, because after enough difficult rooms, you'll invoke a wide range of negative reactions, like "this level is a waste of my time," or "I just can't do this."
Places where I think you need save points.
1:07 - You need a save point in the little tunnel under the spike walls. Otherwise, I think most players will feel themselves under a lot of pressure trying to jumping up between drips, especially with that ghost nearby.
1:10 - You need a save point at the beginning of the room with the red key (unless there's one at the end of the previous room). Using the umbrella against the red spray cannons tends to be a game of luck; sometimes, bullets come under it.
2:24 - For the love of all things holy, how can you do this to the player? There had better be a save point before this!
2:54 - You need a savepoint in the middle, so unless there isn't already one under the power up, put one there. A long laser field like this is tedium at best, and you shouldn't force the player to start it all over if they screw up .
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For lack of a better term, I call it Seems-easier-because-of-practice Syndrome. It's when the author of a level thinks their level is easier than it actually is because the author has played it over and over in the process of making it. Believe me, it effects all of us.
You need more savepoints. Enemy-based challenges in a room shouldn't require repeating. If players have to repeat frustrating, luck-based challenges because they got killed in the next room, you can expect that several will just say "to hell with this level" and quit.
The few exceptions to this rule would be levels such as Spiral. Sometimes replaying rooms causes you to revise your strategy and find more reliable ways to beat it. But your level needs to have freedom of choice for this to work, and it also must be carefully structured to invite players to try different things out. But even then, it's hit and miss. This is especially the case if it's a big level, because after enough difficult rooms, you'll invoke a wide range of negative reactions, like "this level is a waste of my time," or "I just can't do this."
Places where I think you need save points.
1:07 - You need a save point in the little tunnel under the spike walls. Otherwise, I think most players will feel themselves under a lot of pressure trying to jumping up between drips, especially with that ghost nearby.
1:10 - You need a save point at the beginning of the room with the red key (unless there's one at the end of the previous room). Using the umbrella against the red spray cannons tends to be a game of luck; sometimes, bullets come under it.
2:24 - For the love of all things holy, how can you do this to the player? There had better be a save point before this!
2:54 - You need a savepoint in the middle, so unless there isn't already one under the power up, put one there. A long laser field like this is tedium at best, and you shouldn't force the player to start it all over if they screw up .
I understand and these things have been addressed in the game, though it may not seem like it in the video --working for Amaze, we often forget who we are designing the game for and it becomes second nature ot us, I've given the game to about 20 people to test and used their feedback to progress the design; thus far everyone seems satisified with the project :)
It is made to be very hard, and only the most extreme and dedicated gamers finish it (which has only been 5 so far). Your points are very valid -- and I thank you for mentioning them, and they have been addressed 8)
Though the video doesn't show the entire game, or the screens before or after the ones shown in the video, but I know these issues have been addressed for sure
Also many parts are optional, the Super-Jump and Hologram items aren't required to finish the game though they greatly help in many of the puzzles and platforming that the player will face ahead -- but they don't have to accept the most difficult challenges that lead them to these optional items
Though again, I thank you for your honest and detailed review
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Sorry, but I'm going to be honest with you: this level looks bland and unprofessional. :)
I mean, really, some of the rooms are just a bunch of tiles repeated over and over to a gradient background with a bunch of the same enemies thrown in, and it doesn't even look like it would provide an interesting challenge. :)
Here are a few tips I'd like to share with you:
- Use tiles properly, or don't use them at all, or maybe get someone good at art to make custom tilesets, because just tiling squares everywhere (I found this annoying at numerous points), or cutting out bits of a statue (like at 2:14) isn't very pleasing to look at. Also, you might also want to revise your background choice a bit [3:02 (the colors clash, it looks boring, the uniformly-moving but oddly-spaced enemies look unnatural and it's just a simple jump to pass them) and such]. :)
- Rooms which require the player to pause and time their actions should be short; perhaps mingle the laser timing with some great fun [if you can manage that] or just cut it out. :)
- Don't use background tiles in the foreground I mean really come on now they look awful and you have to do funky jumping to climb them. :)
- I'm sure I have more complaints but I'm getting bored so I won't try to find them. :)
And for future videos, you might want to cut down on the screen distortion, unregistered hypercam 2, and metal. :) :) :)
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Wow.. If it weren't for the graphics, I might have thought the video was a completely different game. It was so compressed and sped up.
Just watched the video... and I think that if you search in a dictionary for the definition of "Lunatic", you will find this level O_o
Which part? I'd say it looks very hard at best. :/
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Sorry, but I'm going to be honest with you: this level looks bland and unprofessional. :)
I mean, really, some of the rooms are just a bunch of tiles repeated over and over to a gradient background with a bunch of the same enemies thrown in, and it doesn't even look like it would provide an interesting challenge. :)
Here are a few tips I'd like to share with you:
- Use tiles properly, or don't use them at all, or maybe get someone good at art to make custom tilesets, because just tiling squares everywhere (I found this annoying at numerous points), or cutting out bits of a statue (like at 2:14) isn't very pleasing to look at. Also, you might also want to revise your background choice a bit [3:02 (the colors clash, it looks boring, the uniformly-moving but oddly-spaced enemies look unnatural and it's just a simple jump to pass them) and such]. :)
- Rooms which require the player to pause and time their actions should be short; perhaps mingle the laser timing with some great fun [if you can manage that] or just cut it out. :)
- Don't use background tiles in the foreground I mean really come on now they look awful and you have to do funky jumping to climb them. :)
- I'm sure I have more complaints but I'm getting bored so I won't try to find them. :)
And for future videos, you might want to cut down on the screen distortion, unregistered hypercam 2, and metal. :) :) :)
For the time give to us and the lack of personal, we did amazing, you didn't factor in that I didn't have limitless amount of time, this was a college project and it was voted to be the best project in the school -we made the best use of our time and people avaliable which is something that we must do in the professional world.
Of course I knew I was going to get someone like you who thought they knew everything, it happens, but I'm going to reassure you that your notes are well taken, but you are the ONLY person to complain about them -- not sure if you really mean it or you just need something to hate on, but when I said "be honest" I didn't mean "be a dick." Besides, the limited function of the Knytt Stories Engine combined with my lack of budget for a real video-recorder makes my team very resourcesful in the tools we did use to achieve the product we did. Not to mention it's our first Knytt Stories game, if we had more time we'd be able to do the animated cutscenes, voice acting, custom tilesets, etc. that we wanted to do, and knew how to do. Should also factor in that this is a Challenge/Puzzle game, not an Enviromental game where graphics are made to impress, this game was focused on the gameplay and we didn't have the time to worry about each screen looking graphically amazing which would have been a waste of our time.
And I personally love metal music, and if you don't that's fine but you can't let that be a reason to judge it, but people tell me the music in the game fits very well to the action and fast-pace nature of the game, and the creepier music we used in the slower parts of the game, they said, was also very fitting. So before you actually judge anything at all, why not play the game first. The video isn't even finished if you knew how to read :)
Sorry for my hostility but your review wasn't fair to me or my team considering the actual hurdels we had to jump and the obstacles we had to pass to get what we had in such little time and personnal -- ALSO considering we have two other classes besides that one, and some of us actually have jobs and other responsibilites to take care of on top of the time limit given to us
In my opinion, your entire review to me was quite "unprofessional"
but luckily the world doesn't revolve around what you think, so I'm not too worried about it, though you could have stated these points in a more professional and respectable manner, I can tell you in the professional business this attitude is not tolerated what-so-ever
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Just watched the video... and I think that if you search in a dictionary for the definition of "Lunatic", you will find this level O_o
Which part? I'd say it looks very hard at best. :/
Maybe it is because I suck at hardcore games - when I watched the video, I got really scared :).
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Just watched the video... and I think that if you search in a dictionary for the definition of "Lunatic", you will find this level O_o
Which part? I'd say it looks very hard at best. :/
Maybe it is because I suck at hardcore games - when I watched the video, I got really scared :).
Haha, the game was intended for people who love a challenge, and it does look pretty intimidating no doubt, with practice though it isn't quite that hard, when I provide a download link you should give it a try
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I honestly have to agree with Mr. Monkey and say this level looks rather bland and uninteresting. The only draw seems to be the difficulty. It really doesn't take that long to make a fun, nice looking KS level. But how much time did you have? I mean, if you had only a week or two, it would be another story.
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Firstly, Mister Cartwrite, I am being honest; I am not an egomaniac or anything like that.
Secondly, around here, not many people have the guts to criticize, so you're going to have to trust all that you can get.
Thirdly, you don't have to insult me just because you weren't capable of handling what I had to say; I'm actually trying to help you, believe it or not.
Fourthly, I don't care if you're making a "challenge" or if you're making an environmental level; you should put some effort into designing it properly.
Fifthly, there are other recording programs on the internet (that perhaps don't distort your screen).
Sixthly, I think you're being quite hypocritical, senselessly bashing my review more than it bashed your level [just a little thing to think about].
Also, yes, I did know the video wasn't finished, but that's no excuse not to accept critique or insult me.
Honestly I mean come on now.
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I honestly have to agree with Mr. Monkey and say this level looks rather bland and uninteresting. The only draw seems to be the difficulty. It really doesn't take that long to make a fun, nice looking KS level. But how much time did you have? I mean, if you had only a week or two, it would be another story.
We had maybe two months, but it might as well been a week or two, as college students we are very busy with other game projects and designs, and being an independant game designer, I have much larger game designs to work on at the moment
And the game itself is very enjoyable to play says my testers and friends, even the teachers enjoyed watching me play it, I suppose being a KS community you may have seen much better KS projects which I can understand, but this is also an unfinished video of my game -- in this case the apperance isn't nearly as impressive as the other games you may have seen here, but we also focused on the gameplay first before running out of time. The video doesn't show any custom music or backgrounds we put in or the custom cutscenes we did work rather hard on (not animated, but still quite nice to look at).
But popular opinion tells me that my team and I did a great job with just default tilesets, of course there is much room for improvement, but working with what was given to us we did rather well I'd say, though you may have to play the game to actually get a proper feel of the actual project, the video is just ment to show it in the most basic of sense.
The story, from what I'm told, is also well made and well thought out, the point I'm trying to make is that there is much more to it than just the video which was really intended to show the action and gameplay of the project which is aimed for our target auidence, gamers like me who enjoy a challenge despite how graphically impressive it is or isn't
Thank you for your respectful, humble opinion, I'll give you a download link when I have that ready and I'd like to get a full review from you if you don't mind that is :)
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Firstly, Mister Cartwrite, I am being honest; I am not an egomaniac or anything like that.
Secondly, around here, not many people have the guts to criticize, so you're going to have to trust all that you can get.
Thirdly, you don't have to insult me just because you weren't capable of handling what I had to say; I'm actually trying to help you, believe it or not.
Fourthly, I don't care if you're making a "challenge" or if you're making an environmental level; you should put some effort into designing it properly.
Fifthly, there are other recording programs on the internet (that perhaps don't distort your screen).
Sixthly, I think you're being quite hypocritical, senselessly bashing my review more than it bashed your level [just a little thing to think about].
Also, yes, I did know the video wasn't finished, but that's no excuse not to accept critique or insult me.
Honestly I mean come on now.
Seriously Monkey, you don't know and you have no right to say the things you are spewing, work on your interpersonal skills is my opinion and I handled what you had to say perfectly -- just as you handled what I was telling you, can't push someone and expect them not to push back, I'm defending my design by disproving what you are so crudely trying to say which is said with as little basis as reviewing a game you never played
You have been unhelpful thus far, the design was great and you haven't even played the game yet to know if it is or isn't...
I accept critisicim well, but I don't tolerate this passive beat-down and disrespect
You've said your points and given your opinion, so hopefully we no longer have anything to argue about, I hope now we can both leave this alone and move on from the topic and maybe next time, if willing, you can show me more respect so I can give respect back in return
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You have been unhelpful thus far, the design was great and you haven't even played the game yet to know if it is or isn't...
I accept critisicim well, but I don't tolerate this passive beat-down and disrespect
So your main argument that he was unhelpful was that your game WAS good and he DID enjoy it?
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You have been unhelpful thus far, the design was great and you haven't even played the game yet to know if it is or isn't...
I accept critisicim well, but I don't tolerate this passive beat-down and disrespect
So your main argument that he was unhelpful was that your game WAS good and he DID enjoy it?
I don't understand :S
The game design was good or otherwise I wouldn't have a 90% or so approval rate from my testers, or have gotten an 'A' for it at the International Academy of Design and Technology, people like it, some love it
I'm not trying to argue really, I'm just trying to say he hasn't even played the game yet so you can't say the things he's trying to say fairly
It's a game based of gameplay and so he'd have to play it to know
I'd very much not like to make a big deal out of this really, I just dislike people who make claims and reviews like they know everything about it when they haven't even played the game yet, it's like saying a movie sucks just by watching the trailer
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Dustin, just because your school thinks it's good doesn't mean it is.
And the things I've said are from watching the video (I have eyes and I've played Knytt Stories so I should be able to fairly comment on the design, right? :)).
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Dustin, just because your school thinks it's good doesn't mean it is.
And the things I've said are from watching the video (I have eyes and I've played Knytt Stories so I should be able to fairly comment on the design, right? :)).
See, he doesn't think your game is good. People you know liking things you do isn't always an indication of its overall quality, and it's not good to attack people who give you advice.
Take it from me, I've been there. :sick:
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Dustin, just because your school thinks it's good doesn't mean it is.
And the things I've said are from watching the video (I have eyes and I've played Knytt Stories so I should be able to fairly comment on the design, right? :)).
It's just the only basis I have of a 'poor design' is a guy who disrespectfully commented and reviewed a game he hasn't even played yet
I suppose if you knew the Engine, which you do, and saw the video, I suppose you could get an idea of it -- but how many movie trailers have you seen that looked bad though the movie itself was great
The school likes it, my testers like it (numbering around 20), most of the students like it, I'm not saying it's perfect or anything, there are issues with it, and not everyone enjoys the game, but I just have a problem with the disrespect given in your comment is all
Especially for a game you have yet to actually play, and I felt like I had to defend it by disproving the points presented
but you're right, graphically it isn't impressive, but what we are talking about is so opinionated that it really can't be right or wrong, I just strongly feel as if your disrespect was uncalled for
You aren't the first person to have problems with my design, but you are the first to deliver it so crudely, and atleast the people who did have problems with it actually played the game all the way through -- and so far everything they had to say was opinionated like the music, or the graphics, they didn't like the art style, they didn't like soundtrack here, or they thought it was too difficult for them, just opinions really, things that don't make a good or poor design neccesarily
Though some people loved the soundtrack, some people didn't mind or actually enjoyed the tilesets I used, in fact most did... they don't know of any other KS games besides my own and the other student's, but the game has strong points all its own that can't be seen in the video, it has to be played
But I'm sorry, I didn't mean to insult anyone, or to cause conflict, I just felt like I had to defend my design and I got edgey from feeling disrespected and unfairly judged
The advice could have been better delivered in a way where I felt like I was being helped, and I suppose I could have more politely explained my side of it all without having to counter-disrespect, I apologize for that
I'd just like to say though that these points and issues you have addressed have been delt with in ways that are not visually shown in the video, and even though graphically it isn't nice to look at compared to other KS games, popular opinion tells me the gameplay is most enjoyable, and the soundtrack is quite fitting, the story I hear is also very interesting and progresses well throughout the game
Thank you for your advice, if I make another KS game I will keep it in mind
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OK, can we stop the arguments please? On some accounts I agree with monkey, it doesn't look too beautiful, however I am not going to criticize your game design because
1) I haven't played it yet
2) It is your first level. For a first, its looks perfectly fine
3) I know perfectly well how 'two months' can become 3 hours of free time XD
Looking at the video, I can give a (hopefully) constructive criticism:
1) Although You have seemed to have pulled it off quite well, try to refrain from using background tiles in layer 3 (those trees), some of the my-head-is-stuck-so-far-up-mah-butt-it-comes-out-da-top reviewers might get titchy.
And Mr Monkey, I don't think you can say much. Sorry, but THIS (http://www.knyttlevels.com/levels/Mr%20Monkey%20-%20The%20Seventh%20Happy%20Fun.knytt.bin) is worse. Even if it was a joke, it just shows how hypocritical we all can be.
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OK, can we stop the arguments please? On some accounts I agree with monkey, it doesn't look too beautiful, however I am not going to criticize your game design because
1) I haven't played it yet
2) It is your first level. For a first, its looks perfectly fine
3) I know perfectly well how 'two months' can become 3 hours of free time XD
Looking at the video, I can give a (hopefully) constructive criticism:
1) Although You have seemed to have pulled it off quite well, try to refrain from using background tiles in layer 3 (those trees), some of the my-head-is-stuck-so-far-up-mah-butt-it-comes-out-da-top reviewers might get titchy.
And Mr Monkey, I don't think you can say much. Sorry, but THIS (http://www.knyttlevels.com/levels/Mr%20Monkey%20-%20The%20Seventh%20Happy%20Fun.knytt.bin) is worse. Even if it was a joke, it just shows how hypocritical we all can be.
Makes sense, thank you :)
I was trying to make it so she was kind of "climbing" the trees, but I suppose you are right
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2) It is your first level. For a first, its looks perfectly fine
Critique shouldn't be affected by that. Good is always good, and bad is always bad, regardless of how many times you have tried to do something.
And Mr Monkey, I don't think you can say much. Sorry, but THIS (http://www.knyttlevels.com/levels/Mr%20Monkey%20-%20The%20Seventh%20Happy%20Fun.knytt.bin) is worse. Even if it was a joke, it just shows how hypocritical we all can be.
That you can't sing doesn't make you tone deaf.
Anyways...
Aside from the visual stuff, which I feel has been gone over enough, the enemy placement just seems random. You use a lot of enemies that just spray bullets in random directions. Those, combined with the environment tend to make challenges more or less luck based instead of skill based. You should try to avoid that as much as possible, since its frustrating when your progress isn't determined by your own skill, but the games willingness to cooperate.
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ACWL, you do realize Happy Funland is a joke, right? :)
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ACWL, you do realize Happy Funland is a joke, right? :)
Course i did :] and its Seventh Happy Fun, silly
Wasn't very funny, I must say.
I was using it to try and point out that nothing is perfect. C)p
Anyways..........ACWL, you do realize Happy Funland is a joke, right? :)
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2) It is your first level. For a first, its looks perfectly fine
Critique shouldn't be affected by that. Good is always good, and bad is always bad, regardless of how many times you have tried to do something.
And Mr Monkey, I don't think you can say much. Sorry, but THIS (http://www.knyttlevels.com/levels/Mr%20Monkey%20-%20The%20Seventh%20Happy%20Fun.knytt.bin) is worse. Even if it was a joke, it just shows how hypocritical we all can be.
That you can't sing doesn't make you tone deaf.
Anyways...
Aside from the visual stuff, which I feel has been gone over enough, the enemy placement just seems random. You use a lot of enemies that just spray bullets in random directions. Those, combined with the environment tend to make challenges more or less luck based instead of skill based. You should try to avoid that as much as possible, since its frustrating when your progress isn't determined by your own skill, but the games willingness to cooperate.
It's not entirely random really, there is just multiple different patterns it could be -- some things stay constant but one or two variables move at random ; I see it as the player's ability to react quickly to a changing variable instead of memorizing the pattern which never changes
I was hoping it'd give a challenge no matter how many times someone played it :)
I too find it very annoying when you must wait heavily on luck or chance to make progress, but in this case, I believe, that it's more the ability to react and adapt to a pattern that isn't always constant
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Not so. Any challenge with random elements can become impossible. The patterns that appear are not guaranteed to be passable.
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Not so. Any challenge with random elements can become impossible. The patterns that appear are not guaranteed to be passable.
That's a good point, but I kept that in mind as well when creating the challenges
The random variables provide surprise, and the constant variables keep the structure so it doesn't become impassable
The constant enemy units have a pattern to them designed to be passable when timed correctly, in fact most of them have numerous openings in their pattern -- the one or two random variables cannot be regulated really, but the player has to time the random variables with the constant variable correctly to navigate the challenge
It's always passable no matter how many times you come against it or re-do it, you just have to both wait for the right moment as well as execute it correctly
In short, it's navigating the same puzzle you already know how to solve, but with a few extra pieces to distract you while you do it each time, random pieces with random shapes, if you know what I mean