The Level Designer's Trap

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Offline pumpkin

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #90 on: April 29, 2010, 19:53:11 »
True. But a savepoint is usually a warning, making said trap a bit less surprising right?
Many a hand has scaled the grand old face of the plateau,
Some belong to strangers and some to folks you know,
Holy ghosts and talk show hosts are planted in the sand,
To beautify the foothills and shake the many hands.
-The Meat Puppets

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Offline yohji

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #91 on: April 29, 2010, 19:56:30 »
If we use the broad definition (e.g. surprise traps = monsters at the edge of the screen, a large body of water, an unexpected drop, etc.), then I really don't understand what's so bad about surprise traps. When playing a difficult challenge level I most certainly expect all kinds of traps, and I'm pretty sure most people do, too. Similarly, when playing a difficult game like La Mulana I most certainly expect difficult decisions, opportunities to break the game, etc. (and in that particular case, it actually enhances the experience, because it encourages you to think before you act, be cautious, etc., helping to immerse the player) Countless classic video games established this pattern - PC games like Prince of Persia, Doom, Quake, numerous platformers - you always had all kinds of unexpected difficult challenges happening. It's just another type of gameplay. In fact, one could argue that certain traps in the original KS actually are surprise traps by default - e.g. spiky walls that appear from beneath the ground when you get the eye,
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
So IMO surprise traps, like so many things, are only bad when overdone, or when put in the wrong context (noone wants an unexpected fall to their death in an environmental level), or when there are too few savepoints, etc.

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Offline Mr. Monkey

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #92 on: April 29, 2010, 20:30:34 »
Inescapable traps without any indication of their existence are good level design!!!!!!!!!!


Seriously though there's a difference between difficult and unfair.
o__  o

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Offline Pick Yer Poison

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #93 on: April 29, 2010, 21:34:04 »
(noone wants an unexpected fall to their death in an environmental level)

Whenever I end up with a surprise trap in a level I've made, it was a direct result of how I build my levels: I don't plan out anything more than the vague ideas of what I want, and then I just kind of let the screens build themselves. I don't really pay much attention to the gameplay aspect (unless I'm making a challenge level, which I rarely do), so the screen may have a small surprise trap that I didn't notice while building it. Later, when I come back through to add savepoints, if I notice the surprise trap, I'll try to remove it. The problem with this comes when removing it makes the screen look lackluster. When that happens, I just shrug and add a savepoint in the screen right before it, so that anyone who falls into it doesn't have to trek all the way back to that area, and can respawn right away and continue on their way, knowing that the trap is there.

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Offline minmay

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #94 on: April 29, 2010, 21:58:43 »
In fact, one could argue that certain traps in the original KS actually are surprise traps by default - e.g. spiky walls that appear from beneath the ground when you get the eye,
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2010, 01:29:02 by minmay »

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Offline yohji

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #95 on: April 29, 2010, 22:25:46 »
In fact, one could argue that certain traps in the original KS actually are surprise traps by default - e.g. spiky walls that appear from beneath the ground when you get the eye,
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
I never said anything of the sort. I was merely pointing out that KS includes surprise traps by default, and demonstrates their use in
Spoiler: (click to show/hide)
, thus encouraging their use in custom levels. Which means that KS is one of many, many classic games that include such concepts. Given that these games did actually become classic, I think it's safe to assume most players have no problem with surprise traps in general - which is why I was puzzled to see the issue discussed here at length.

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Offline Mr. Monkey

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #96 on: April 29, 2010, 22:28:35 »
people thinking it's fine doesn't mean it's actually decent design
o__  o

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Offline yohji

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #97 on: April 29, 2010, 22:34:18 »
(noone wants an unexpected fall to their death in an environmental level)

Whenever I end up with a surprise trap in a level I've made, it was a direct result of how I build my levels: I don't plan out anything more than the vague ideas of what I want, and then I just kind of let the screens build themselves. I don't really pay much attention to the gameplay aspect (unless I'm making a challenge level, which I rarely do), so the screen may have a small surprise trap that I didn't notice while building it. Later, when I come back through to add savepoints, if I notice the surprise trap, I'll try to remove it. The problem with this comes when removing it makes the screen look lackluster. When that happens, I just shrug and add a savepoint in the screen right before it, so that anyone who falls into it doesn't have to trek all the way back to that area, and can respawn right away and continue on their way, knowing that the trap is there.

As long as there's a savepoint, it's allright with me :)

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Offline yohji

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2010, 22:38:23 »
people thinking it's fine doesn't mean it's actually decent design

Well, if we were talking about painting or music, this argument would hold well. But we're talking about video games, which are completely interactive, and the creators have to think about how the player behaves and reacts to their game. Judging from countless examples, people have no real problem with surprise traps, so they can be used. With caution, of course - what you described earlier ("inescapable traps without any indication of their existence") may constitute a problem, but, for instance, what pumpkin described ("a large amount of water with no more than one tile of warning") is perfectly fine, especially if there's a savepoint.

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Offline Mr. Monkey

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2010, 23:01:09 »
lack of negative reaction is not the same as positive reaction
o__  o

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Offline minmay

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #100 on: April 30, 2010, 01:40:31 »
what pumpkin described ("a large amount of water with no more than one tile of warning") is perfectly fine, especially if there's a savepoint.

No, it's not fine.

Notice that I didn't provide any reason for it not being fine.  Notice also that you provided no reason for it being fine.

Please provide a reason for such a trap being better than the absence of the trap, rather than the trap being better than an even more unfair trap.

also, reason:
Personally, I hate seeing surprise traps in levels.  They are, to me, one of the most annoying things to consistently appear in KS levels.  What makes you say people have no real problem with surprise traps?  I get the feeling that "people" here means "you."  I think you'll find there are plenty of other people that dislike them.
After all, what does the trap do?  It kills the player with very little warning.  There is no skill involved in avoiding it; all it does is encourage the player to pause after walking into a new screen.  How can that be perceived as good?

Finally, perhaps you would like to cite a few of your "countless examples."  More specifically, I want you to give an example of someone who played a level with such a trap, liked it, and posted about that.

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Offline Pick Yer Poison

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #101 on: April 30, 2010, 02:12:11 »
You want a reason to put in a surprise trap? Fine, I'll give you one. Making the player pause and actually look at the screen. Most players will simply run through a screen without bothering to pay attention to the scenery; if they fall into a surprise trap, they're that much more likely to pause and take a look at their surroundings rather than simply rushing through them.

More specifically, I want you to give an example of someone who played a level with such a trap, liked it, and posted about that.

Give us an example of someone who played a level without a trap and posted that they liked it because it didn't have a trap. People don't post about something they like if it's been done several times before; they'll only post that they liked the level. Surprise traps can be surprisingly frequent, depending on how wide your definition of them is, so most people have already seen them. Most people don't post things like "I didn't like it because on the 43rd screen you can fall in water right away;" rather, they'll simply post a generic comment saying they disliked the level.

Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #102 on: April 30, 2010, 02:27:37 »
I seem to recall one surprise trap level that rather annoyed people. It did not have a savepoint right before the trap as a "warning," but still annoyed the heck out of people.
Lurk more.

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Offline Mr. Monkey

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #103 on: April 30, 2010, 06:19:02 »
Any truly surprising trap would not motivate caution, as there would be no way of detecting it.  The only way to really avoid them is to get stupidly metagamey and poke around at every save point, which is tedious and oh did I say stupid because it is.
o__  o

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Offline AA

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Re: The Level Designer's Trap
« Reply #104 on: April 30, 2010, 10:18:55 »
I think surprise traps can work within certain bounds. Let's take The Machine as an example, a mostly good one. There are essentially two surprise traps in the level: ghost spike bars and retractable spikes.

First of all, Knytt Stories in general doesn't have lives or a score, thus, provided that save points are properly placed, getting killed by a surprise trap isn't usually a big deal.

Ghost spike bars are always surprise traps, and they're the 'worst' example of that in The Machine, though that's not saying much: they can't be detected by the Radar, but they're confined to a single area, so the player knows that s/he has to stay alert only in that area (it's still a pretty large one, so it can get annoying). There's also no instance where you can get surprise-spiked after a challenging section.

Retractable spikes are used sparingly, only appear on certain types of platforms (you can always tell where they'll pop out after the first time), and the first time you see them, you probably won't get killed by them (so it's not really a surprise trap, strictly speaking). The Radar works on them, but that's not necessarily a factor, since it's an optional power-up.

Finally, all in all, there's a limited number of surprise traps in the whole level, and a limited variety: after the first death, any player would know what to expect, and where s/he can let her/his guard down. There's also no 'warning' Save Point before them, if I remember correctly, because there's no need, as the nearest one is a couple of screens before the trap, with no hard challenges in-between (no frustration, yet no 'surprise spoiler').
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