Nifflas' Support Forum
Released Games => Knytt Underground => Pre-release topics => Topic started by: Nifflas on November 11, 2010, 23:42:24
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KnyttWaDF is a hybrid somewhere between Knytt and Within a Deep Forest, and contains game mechanics from both, and have a story that's also connected to those games. It's in very, very early development, and will hopefully be finished sometime in 2012 though it's way too early to set an actual release date.
Oh, and I got to wrap up another project before it, it's just that I can not work on that now since that game is commisioned and I'm awaiting instructions (you know I wouldn't work on two projects simultanely). Once I receive the instructions, I'll pause KnyttWaDF for a few months, but hope to go back into developing it full time in January or February.
Also, this early, no promises about anything! I really want to do this game though and I really doubt something will get in the way, but I'm poor, so if another short commisioned game comes up I might put this aside again to come back to it after, everything's basically pretty much uncertain in the beginning. I got the base mechanics working though, both a WaDF and Knytt movement I'm very satisfied with. Also, this game will be AWESOME; so if you know someone who wants to fund or invest in it, send 'em my way :D
I don't really take random suggestions about the game right now because then I'd get more opinions than I could make use of (which is why you can currently not post new topics in this board), but I do take any suggestions related to things I post about, like ball materials, knytt powers, and so on!
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New game in development!! :nuts:
That screenie is fantastic..
Yet another reason for the world to have to fight through 2012
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Great-looking atmosphere; good luck with the final product. Any platform preferences yet?
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Well, I'd prefer as many as possible. Of course I value PC a lot since that's where my players are. If for some reason a super ridicously beneficial deal would show up, I could lock the game to a specific platform, but that's very unlikely, it should be a lot smarter from a commercial point of view to get a game out on as many as possible.
I hope to get some proper funding though.
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That screenshot is absolutely beautiful! C)
Btw, is this using mmf2? or some other program?
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Sounds like a game I'd love to play! :)
The game mechanics may make it a hybrid of Knytt and WaDF, but based on the screenshot I'd have guessed it to be a mix of Saira (photo-realistic objects) and Night Sky (silhouette play). May it be the best of all worlds! :D
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That's right, it's using photographs like Saira, and sihouettes like NightSky :)
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It's just AWESOME!!!
I cannot wait for the 2012!
T.T
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The screenshot and the premise are very intriguing! I can't think of any way to unite Knytt and WaDF, it would be very interesting to see how it works out.
I guess the use of photograph kind of makes this problematic, but still, is there going to be a level editor available?
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And suddenly I find a game worth pining away for.
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I guess the use of photograph kind of makes this problematic, but still, is there going to be a level editor available?
It shouldn't be, the editor is easy to use, and there's a dedicated object editor for building animated objects out of photographs (though users will have to make the background transparent themseleves in Photoshop). Also, of course custom levels doesn't need to be photo based either.
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Cool!
WaDF, Knytt, Saira and NightSky in one game!
Looking forward it!
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I guess the use of photograph kind of makes this problematic, but still, is there going to be a level editor available?
It shouldn't be, the editor is easy to use, and there's a dedicated object editor for building animated objects out of photographs (though users will have to make the background transparent themseleves in Photoshop). Also, of course custom levels doesn't need to be photo based either.
Aha! Well, this is great news. :D
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Cool!
WaDF, Knytt, Saira and NightSky in one game!
Looking forward it!
There's no actual physics simulation involved though, but I think I managed to get a very nice ball movement working, it even supports slopes \o/
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Cool!
WaDF, Knytt, Saira and NightSky in one game!
Looking forward it!
There's no actual physics simulation involved though, but I think I managed to get a very nice ball movement working, it even supports slopes \o/
It's good to know you're here to help beginners, nifflas.
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I'm very excited about this game. WaDF was my favorite Nifflas game and seeing him inspired to bring that formula back is great. Also, the ball-knytt mechanics bring about a lot of level design possibilities, which will enable his expertise on that particular field shine. :)
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Totally looking forward to this. I love all of Nifflas' games and I'm sure this one will be no exception.
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This already sounds (and looks) great! You are some genius for sure, Nifflas. I'm curious though, what sort of difficulty level can we expect from this game?
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looks pretty awesome
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This is sounding really exciting. These sort of early announcements, with so much up in the air, are great for getting the imagination going.
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That looks so beautiful. So is it a situation where you can play as either knytt or ball, or that you have to switch between them? Is it up to the player or the level maker which character you are?
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For now, up to player. Can't say it won't change though. But most likely will be the option of the level designer, if it'll change. ;)
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Do want!
Question though: You said it will have both WaDF and Knytt controls, what does this mean? Bouncing Knytt? Climbing WaDF ball? Juni using the WaDF as a space-hopper? (that last one would be AWESOME)
answermenownifflaselseillasplodeandyoullbepickinglittlebitsofjimj316offofyourforumforthe
nextsixmonthsalsoyourpcwillasplodeinacloudofsuperangryninjaferretsandtheywillmeltyour
stuffwithlasersandsalamicannonsonfire
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It means that you can either be the WaDF ball or Knytt.
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What are you using to make this?
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What are you using to make this?
i too would like to know this C)p
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I suppose, that Nifflas is using what he always uses: MMF2.
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Just saw this and it is great news!
I hope that once it is done, it will start a new Golden Era of Knyttdom with tons of new people and tons of new people making tons of levels C)
Also I hope it will feature Juni in some way, or maybe a new Knytt character altogether?
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Went back here to see what's been going on during the two years I've been gone, I'm now incredibly happy to hear about this project, hope you the best of luck.
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A combination of my two favorite Nifflas games?!? My face is still stinging from all the times I just slapped myself. Either I'm trapped in the best dream ever or the dreamworld has somehow bled out of my mind and invaded the real world creating some sort of bizarre fantasy realm. One minute, I'm going to go fly off the top of a building...
...okay, so bad news. Apparently this fantasy realm does not involve being able to fly. I repeat...you can NOT fly. So don't try. Unless you love having both your legs broken in fifteen places in which case...uh...seek help.
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A combination of my two favorite Nifflas games?!? My face is still stinging from all the times I just slapped myself. Either I'm trapped in the best dream ever or the dreamworld has somehow bled out of my mind and invaded the real world creating some sort of bizarre fantasy realm. One minute, I'm going to go fly off the top of a building...
...okay, so bad news. Apparently this fantasy realm does not involve being able to fly. I repeat...you can NOT fly. So don't try. Unless you love having both your legs broken in fifteen places in which case...uh...seek help.
What.
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...okay, so bad news. Apparently this fantasy realm does not involve being able to fly. I repeat...you can NOT fly. So don't try. Unless you love having both your legs broken in fifteen places in which case...uh...seek help.
What.
I think it's a joke.
Anyways, KynttWaDF seems like a VERY good idea!!
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Awesome.
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Yeah, basically, if you like Knytt and Within a Deep Forest, you will like this.
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I am SO looking forward to this; Knytt and WaDF are two of my favourite games!
I hope it has an atmosphere more like those games though (WaDF in particular), the screenshots make it look a lot more like Saira.
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Sorry Nifflas but I think that the design of the Knytt is somehow... bad.
I really loved it in Knytt and Knytt Stories, cause the Knytt there looked like Knytt and nothing else. The new design is more human. :/
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The proportions are similar; big head and small body. Saira is more human-like, this is definitely not a human. This is a typical Knytt Stories character, only with better resolution and antialiasing. It's what a knytt looks always looked like in my head. I'm sorry I can not I live up to your idea of them :(
Edit: Well, obviously I then decided to change the character...
This was also a reaction with Cave Story Wii as the resolution had doubled, and additional details was added, like Balrog's nose and eyebrows, or some new facial expressions that you had basically never been able to see before. Some fans basically thought that it didn't match how they had percieved the characters. In this case, my response can only be something in the lines of what Amaya said (though this is not at all an exact quote); I draw according to how I percieve the characters, the added detail only lets you see how better.
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Oh, only now did I notice that Nifflas added a new screenshot to the first post. x)
I thought you were commenting on the Knytt's appearance based on LPChip's avatar.
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Well,
it's your mind which was creating the Knytt as we know them. So it's up to you to design the characters as you like. It's just my personal point of view but maybe I'm distracted be the design of Juni and Knytt in the previous games (which are awesome).
Or maybe I'll change my mind again with upcoming screens or trailers.
Anyways, I'm very curious about Knyttwadf Nifflas. Just keep going :^^:
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My favourite Knytt will always be the one from Knytt. The others all look a lot more human to me. Pre-KS (in other words the Knytts we saw in WaDF and in Knytt, all designed by Sara Sandberg) the Knytts looked plumper with monkey-like tails to me. The tails seemed to disappear after that, which I think is a shame cos they're so cute!
But Vinterrun you're right, it's the artist's decision that matters the most.
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It's important to understand that a Knytt isn't a species. It's a generic word for small creatures, so chance is you'll also see the less human-like ones with tails at some point in the game.
But yeah, you're totally right about that Sara's characters look different than mine, which explains the characters the village in WaDF.
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This is going to be so cool. Oh, 2012, why must you hold everything awesome?
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Well, now there's NightSky and soon The Great Work :D
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It's important to understand that a Knytt isn't a species. It's a generic word for small creatures, so chance is you'll also see the less human-like ones with tails at some point in the game.
Ah right, I didn't know that.
And yeah, we seem to be getting a flood of awesome Nifflas releases! :D
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I guess I do think the ultra flat top mullet is a bit much, differing from Juni's more subdued, curve topped mullet. But as has been said, artist's call. And this looks like it is sharing similar water effects as the Great Work? Yeeeaaahhh!
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What are you making it with? :)
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MMF2 for the time being, but the screen loading time is unfortunately a bit too slow with it since all the graphics are hi-res and non-blurred. The ideal thing would be if I could hire someone like Jamie so we can move to C++ as soon as possible.
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I also don't really like the main character graphics. I think it's both mullet thing Headgrinder mentioned, the shape of the head and facial expression.
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I leave the forum for a year, I come back and what is this I don't even. O_o
Looks like it's time to break out the emergency bribe wallet!
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I also don't really like the main character graphics. I think it's both mullet thing Headgrinder mentioned, the shape of the head and facial expression.
As much as I try to avoid doing placeholders and changing stuff (it's inefficient), character graphics is something I end up modifying over time during a game project. Saira went through tons of revisions, and in KnyttWaDF I've probably modified the character ~10 times since the screen shot you were watching.
Right now, she's looks like in the attachment, though this may also change over time.
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I've probably modified the character ~10 times since the screen shot you were watching.
I like this! New version is a lot better, but I look forward to seeing the version in the finished product.
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So basically, I need to update my avatar. Is that what you're saying? X)
I really do like the looks of this new character btw. :)
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Yeah, basically, I modified her from a hybrid raster-vector with bones, to a vector-only model for more crisp anti-aliasing. I toned down the cartoony features (though I need to keep some proportions wrong for e.g. the eyes to be visible at all, or the character to be able to move in certain ways). Then I decided that she should accessorice just for the sake of being a bit more unique since she was quite nifflas-game-generic previously. I guess she turned into a crustie reggae girl instead.
Even though I may do more modifications to the main character, I'm probably "locking" the basic style and proportions at this point, so I can begin to create more characters.
If you want an avatar LP, here's a more detailed render of the character.
Edit: Removed attachment
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Very nice. :)
The animation also was nice I suppose, but this certainly is a great image!
Thanks.
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I'm liking this one so very much better! :)
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So do I :)
I have to admit she needed a overhaul, I just didn't realize it right away. Characters in The Great Work will probably have the kind of look she used to have before all the recent changes since I'm not going to spend the extra work redesigning them all, while characters in the new game will be designed with the new look.
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from the initial character design I didn't even think that it was supposed to be a female. :P
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Paula: :P :P :P
At this point I'm just making small silly updates that probably won't show in the game resolution. Well, as long as I keep the daily quota (10 rooms a day makes the game... uhm, finished two-thousand-and-twelv...ay?) I should have some time to spend on silly modifications too. I'm not an expert when it comes to character design - if I attempt to just draw a human face it looks terrible - but if I start with something crappy and just keep updating it over a period of time, it eventually becomes quite nice.
Edit: Removed part of the post and making a new topic about it.
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The rasta look is perfect.
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By no means i mean disrespect with this post. I've come here as an Independant Artist as Niflas himself, to share some ideas...
i'm not a big fan of photo backgrounds, mostly because they always look rushed and since the lighting never matches between pictures. And you always have the problem of needing to be an extremely photorealistic painter if you want to change something other than colors.
So, I made these 5 minutes mockups in Painter, to show how easily you can turn an photograph into an abstract painting. Since you already had the work to crop the photos from their backgrounds, you can add the effect to every and each object separately. Using maybe different materials for each layer of objects. Maybe making the background with big strokes and showing lots of canvas, and as you move to the foreground smalles brushstrokes with more precision.
And as you can see by the pictures, this is a very unique visual that others game don't have... Braid has a painted look, but its not abstract as this. Limbo has black foreground, but its not smooth as this.
Painter doesn't just "Turn your photo into a painting" like photoshop does, it actually paints the picture following the curves and colors. as if it was brush stroking every part of it... And you can paint on top of it anytime. Either using colors you choose or simply the colors from the photo (no need to eye-drop it, it detects the color by position).
Using simple things like animated masks you can easily make effects like Waterfalls (the water falling as it if was being brushed by someone)... Lakes and a Sea of fresh ink (shining as its still wet). Grass moving as if someone was painting it on the spot... and various effects.
Sure. I know the answer to this probably will be:
"the game has its style, its my style and its too late to change it"... But, I thought I would drop this little food for ideas.
I'm a big fan of within and knytt, and I decided that it would be fair to share this idea with you.
I think this can easily improve the graphical quality of your titles and speed up your development pipeline, while allowing you to express yourself and create moods (a thing we all know you're a master of). I was disapointed with Night Sky because of the gradient backgrounds.
And i'm prettu sure this style of painted backgrounds can easily improve the reaction to your titles as far as graphics go. If with 5 minutes I can do something decent with a small PNG. Imagine someone being able to work with layers and having more time?
The possibilities are endless.
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I doubt Nifflas would want to change the style of the photo backgrounds of this game this far into development, since it seems like he has a very specific style in mind that he has thought through. For example, he has even mentioned that in this game the photos will all be crisp, not blurred like in Saira. That shows that he has thought through what he wants it to look like and has made specific design decisions.
However, when the game and editor comes out, you should make your own level with the style you've just described. It would be very unique and people would probably enjoy it a lot. It seems to me that regardless of whatever design decisions Nifflas has made for the main game, we who will be able to make our own levels will have the option of making other choices (e.g. we could still blur some of the layers of photos like in Saira for our own levels, even if Nifflas didn't do it in his.) I too am excited for the game and editor to come out as I also have lots of level design ideas. (For example, you mentioned that when photos are used for backgrounds, the lighting angles don't match. But I think that's entirely up to the level designer. I'm looking forward to trying to achieve specific lighting effects by the way I arrange different photos relative to each other. :))
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I honestly can't see how you could make a game using that style and have any sort of moving background features, which I assume this has, without them looking weird. Like some waving branches. If they were static on the background and everything was painting-looking it would be fine. But if they moved there would be no way the edges would look right with the rest of the scenery because they wouldn't blend with everything else like they would in a static image.
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I'm not a fan of your suggestion, Ratone. It sacrifices too much in terms of functionality. I hope you are able to come to terms with the current visual style, as I don't imagine it will change...
However, as back seat astronaut said, I wouldn't mind seeing something done with this style in mind from the onset. I just don't think it can work as a filter, or as something retroactively applied to graphics that have already been very carefully tuned.
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Well, I'll say I think it looks cool, but it would be hard to integrate a knytt/ball into such a game play without modifying the way it looks as well, perhaps even their mechanics. I can imagine a filter in front of the character which actively applies such effects to it as it moves, making a kind of moving paint effect. That would be freaking cool. However, any of that would require programing I doubt Nifflas would go for.
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Not only would it be hard to implement, I wonder how much such an effect would be an impact on the performance. If you had this kind of graphics as base, it would probably work, but applying a filter or effect afterwards will probably greatly impact on the performance, making the gameplay slow as every frame must undergo the effect, which by itself could cause for unwanted side effects, like not being able to clearly see what areas you can pass through and which are blocking you (background can become indistinguishable from the foreground at places where you need to see where exactly you can go and can't.)
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Well, most of all, I like how KnyttWaDF look a whole lot better than the filtered images that trades the detail for some virtual brush strokes. If I can not see a problem, it's quite hard to fix it, and as a lot of people (even some design people who's stuff I really like) think the graphics look beautiful and non-rushed I see no reason to change for anyone else's sake. Of course everybody won't like it, but that's how it always is.
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Apparently Nifflas gave an interview to Destructoid a while ago. I have just found them. You can see some footage of this new game on the first part. Not much new besides that, though. Still, I hope you enjoy it! ;)
Part 1: http://youtu.be/mMBW9FDs-oQ
Part 2: http://youtu.be/V0eCUvBfjpI
Part 3: http://youtu.be/86-2qCAvvGQ
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Wow that looks great, much much better in motion than in stills. Photos blend very nicely and the colors are smooth.
Btw the footage can be seen around the 6th minute.
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Oh my, that looks splendid. The gameplay looks really smooth. Also, I like the water effects. Also, the beard is looking well.
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Haha, my beard oscillates like an up sawtooth wave at a frequency of around ~0.0000001hz.
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the game looks really nice in motion. I think I will like this game! nice interview as well.
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Wow, I agree with everyone that the game looks awesome on motion! :D The level editor looks great too. I was curious how much control we'll have over the movement of the objects, and I'm glad to see how flexible it looks. I can't wait to start making a level for this game.
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Hurray!
A new Knytt game!
Not that your latest games such as NightSky and Saira are bad or something, it's just that I personally enjoyed the Knytt series and Within A Deep Forest much more.
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It'll use the same water shader, but the game won't have the same quantity of water since there's no swimming in the game. TGW is a lot about swimming while KnyttWaDF is about other things.
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Apparently Nifflas gave an interview to Destructoid a while ago. I have just found them. You can see some footage of this new game on the first part. Not much new besides that, though. Still, I hope you enjoy it! ;)
Part 1: http://youtu.be/mMBW9FDs-oQ
Part 2: http://youtu.be/V0eCUvBfjpI
Part 3: http://youtu.be/86-2qCAvvGQ
Thanks for finding that. I don't understand the names of games (or a single game with a long name) Nifflas calls answering question about La Mulana at 6:44 in part 2. What is that game?
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I would like to see Spelunky (http://www.spelunkyworld.com/) as well on more systems. Um, it's coming out on the 360, but that's like, the best game ever, so I want it on everything.
Is this what you are referring to?
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Spelunky is awesome! My best round involved lots of ghost harvesting and basically destroying the entire city of gold. I got 1677200 money. It never gets boring.
Then, Spelunky is probably not a game that everybody would appreciate, but I personally can't wait for the XBLA version. It inspires me to want to experiment with procedural level design, which is something I plan to try :)
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Is this what you are referring to?
Yes, thanks. Gotta try it out.
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I have a question: will it be possible to translate this game to another language in future?
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It'll have a level editor, right? That's what really set Knytt Stories apart from your other titles.
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I have a question about "Knytt Underground", Is it gonna be free? I probably skipped a post saying whether it is gonna be free or not... Oh well. :P2 And by the way, I am new in the forum. Yay.
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No, it is surely not going to be free, as it is the product of Nifflas' work for at least the past 2 years. It should be DRM-free and not very expensive, though.
Also, welcome to the forum!
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Oh, all right. Well, if I tell you the truth, I always believed that at least one game of the Knytt series should cost money. Because all of the Knytt games are awesome. X)
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I don't know if someone has already asked this, but have you thought about kickstarter?
In the first post you mentioned that you had to work on other games to get money to live and stuff. But then again i'm probably 2 years to late ^^
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I think you would at least have a forums worth of people on board with that Nifflas.
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Given that the game is already coming to PS3 and Vita, surely a Kickstarter really wouldn't serve much purpose now.
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Maybe at some point I could use kickstarter for a future project, but development on this game goes super well on my current budget so there's no reason to right now.
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Kickstarters for games tend to work extremely well.
(from well-known people, that is)
Take MSPA's Homestuck, for example. The goal for the homestuck game was 700,000$ and within two weeks it netted 1.5 million.
I don't know the approximate size of the MSPA fan base when compared to Nifflas', but I'm certain there are a lot of people who would throw in a few bucks here and there for a new niff game :P
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Kickstarters for games tend to work extremely well.
(from well-known people, that is)
Take MSPA's Homestuck, for example. The goal for the homestuck game was 700,000$ and within two weeks it netted 1.5 million.
I don't know the approximate size of the MSPA fan base when compared to Nifflas', but I'm certain there are a lot of people who would throw in a few bucks here and there for a new niff game :P
The Homestuck fan base is significantly larger than the Nifflas fan base. It's kind of unfair to compare the two, especially considering how dead the forum is lately.
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I'll have to time it right too, directly after a big game release is a great time, and the weeks after Knytt Underground release might be the best opportunity. I also have many indie friends who could help build attention around a project. On the other hand, I haven't really settled on what I'll do after this game yet, and I won't run a kickstarter unless I have a well planned and wip and working prototype, and knowing that the project could really benefit for it greatly. It's a big responsibility to accept money before a product is even fully developed, so I need to be really sure about what I'm doing when I do that :)