Nifflas' Support Forum

Level Editing Support => Knytt Stories Level Previews => Topic started by: egomassive on November 01, 2010, 02:45:29

Title: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: egomassive on November 01, 2010, 02:45:29
In the spirit of Halloween, I decided to give a little treat. But, it's really more of a trick since I don't think this project will ever see completion.

The concept was to make a survival horror adventure game using the KS engine. I worked out the details to make a very complex inventory system where players could find items and solve puzzles in seemingly endless combinations. It even includes a menu system allowing inventory viewing,  item selection, and saving.

The problem is I set the visual standard a little too high for myself. Creating the detailed-filled environments I want at Juni's proportions is at the edge of my skills. That is too intense of a place for me to work for very long.

Picture 1: Movement is mainly in a straight line that crosses behind foreground objects, and through doorways.

Picture 2: Making walls is difficult. Making furniture that looks natural in this perspective is very very difficult. So far, I have a chair and it's too big.

Picture 3: The color paintings are spoofs of paintings found in WaDF and default tileset 73.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: yohji on November 01, 2010, 17:20:02
This is very impressive, really pushing the boundaries of what KS levels can be. The trees on the first screen are great, and the other two screens look exactly like an oldschool survival horror game. As for your description, eh, I can't even imagine how much work would have to go into such a complex project; as much as it would be great to see a level like this finished, I have to say this looks like one of those cases where making a game from scratch is easier than modifying an existing game... still, a great effort no matter if it goes any further.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: Talps on November 01, 2010, 23:10:02
Looks really good, though I can see why it ended up being too much! The system sounds fascinatingly complex.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: egomassive on November 02, 2010, 02:58:26
Here's a little more about the system. First of all each screen can have up to 9 check-able positions, 6 of which can be interactive. Pressing down at a check-able position takes you to a clone screen containing a sign --3 shifts and three signs equals 9 possible checks. Press to go back and continue searching. If the check-able position is interactive, then jumping takes you to the inventory (see image.)

Underneath, I planned to use a combination of flag-checks and duplication to track the players progress. There could be up to 5 single use inventory items, the 4 usual keys, and 1 multiple use item (a crowbar.) Each single use item would require 2 flags, one for pick-up, one for use. Small events like picking up an item, would flag-warp you to clone rooms. Main events like gaining access to new areas of the level, would send you to clone maps. Main events would also open up new items to fill in the empty slots. Obviously the puzzles would require careful construction. The trickiest part would be constructing the proper inventory screen. I'd have to check for each item available individually. The 1 multiple use item would act logically like a single use item in the version of the map it was collected in. It's first use would be the main event for that version.

Clearly it's a complex and bulky way to make a game that could be easily made with a different engine. It's completely outside the realm of how KS was intended to be used, but that's why I wanted to make it.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: sergiocornaga on November 02, 2010, 05:39:44
Fascinating! Coincidentally, I've also recently been planning a survival horror style Knytt Story that uses the engine in a way it was never intended. I was actually considering using the KS mod you've been working on for it, despite having no idea when it might be released... I assume most of the work I do in regular KS would carry over completely, though.

I also had the idea to make it somewhat episodic (with other Knytters contributing sequels) as this is a system I have fond memories of (http://www.realityonthenorm.info/). Think it's something you'd be interested in (perhaps as a way to revive what you've done here) if I ever finish that first part?

P.S. that first screenshot is amazing.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: Headgrinder on November 02, 2010, 12:35:00
This is really amazing man.  It is extremely clear you put a lot of work into this and I'm impressed by even the unfinished results. 
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: egomassive on November 04, 2010, 03:32:38
Thanks for all the compliments. I'm seriously considering making an environmental level using the forest set. I'd hate for it to go to waste, but I don't want to release it as is. It's only half a tile set, and it's perspective makes it incompatible with any existing tilesets. The natural areas require much less work than the interiors. If I make it, it won't be until after my large project is finished.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: Strange Darkness on November 04, 2010, 08:23:09
woah  :shocked:
i would loved to see this complete
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: variad on November 05, 2010, 01:44:31
It looks totally awesome! If you can release even just a demo, it's gonna be an achievement!
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: yohji on November 05, 2010, 20:04:17
Quote from: egomassive on November 04, 2010, 03:32:38
I'm seriously considering making an environmental level using the forest set.

This would be wonderful!
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: dave.germain on November 07, 2010, 18:24:12
This looks really cool. I like the idea of using the flags to represent inventory items.

For what it's worth, if you consider all the flags as a 9-digit binary number, you should get 2^9=512 different "states" for your inventory. (That comp sci degree is really coming in handy-hehe). So potentially you could have 512 different combinations of all sorts of different objects in your inventory. That's the theory. The only problem is reading all 9 flags at the same time. I have only figured out how to really use one flag at a time. But I'm sure there's a way...

By the way, how do you put objects in Juni's foreground? Can she really pass behind objects?
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: variad on November 08, 2010, 02:07:34
Quote from: dave.germain on November 07, 2010, 18:24:12

By the way, how do you put objects in Juni's foreground? Can she really pass behind objects?


I don't want to drift away from the topic, but I wondered the same thing, and I did search the Editor's tutorial...
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: Headgrinder on November 08, 2010, 02:22:04
Layer 6 and 7 are in front of Juni, so any object on those layers are in front of her.  If you want her to pass in front of tiles, you have to make custom objects of those tiles, which unfortunately is a bit of a pain in my mind.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: egomassive on November 09, 2010, 13:33:14
@ Dave.Germain: Including zero there are ten flags. So, there are 210 possible combinations. The biggest design limitation is in flag checking where all you get is a simple three point if else statement. The game will only act on the first true flag or power-up it checks for. The game can be forced to do consecutive flag checks with the additions of shift on touch screens but this creates a glitchy experience for players. (Note: This is what I would have used to generate my inventory screens.) This isn't to say that smooth gameplay can't be combined with complex situations. Look at Shipwrecked and A Knytt in Time for some complex solutions.

@ Dave.Germain and Variad: Headgrinder means "If you want her to pass behind tiles..." Otherwise, he is correct. The best example I can think of is Farik's incomplete Station Sputzna, but this may be difficult to find. A more recent example is in Ozz's Realms of the Pharaoh. In the secret passages Juni passes behind semi-transparent tiles.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: variad on November 09, 2010, 23:40:37
I've been turning tiles into custom objects in Paint. Right now, the process is quick, but for the ones with transparency (like those trees), I'll have to find another program (to save in png32).  :S
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: egomassive on November 09, 2010, 23:54:39
^: I use an alpha channel in my work, but for simple transparency fill in with color RGB(255,0,255) A.K.A. fuchsia.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: variad on November 10, 2010, 03:55:14
Quote from: egomassive on November 09, 2010, 23:54:39
^: I use an alpha channel in my work, but for simple transparency fill in with color RGB(255,0,255) A.K.A. fuchsia.
Ok, I'll try that  :)
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: Headgrinder on January 27, 2013, 15:40:07
I forgot all about this level until you linked it on the secret screenshots!  Any chance that KS+ can help you finish this?
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: egomassive on January 27, 2013, 18:27:41
Many of the effects would be easier in KS+, like lightning flashes with sound or walking behind stuff. Ultimately it was the art assets that were too difficult and time-consuming to make. KS+ wont help with that. I still have no plans to continue this project, nor do I have plans for the tilesets.

P.S. I don't know what you mean by "secret screenshots" out here in a totally un-secret thread. ;)
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: Headgrinder on January 27, 2013, 19:31:00
Oh right, ahem, I mean.... my psychic abilities picked up on it... yeah.

any chance of an incomplete release?
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: egomassive on January 27, 2013, 19:51:48
Well, the incomplete tilesets have some junky looking stuff in them. Oh, why not.

Edit: The level is on a desktop that is not on top of a desk. It's in a closet. So, it'll be awhile before I can upload the level. Try not to anticipate it. Almost everything there is to see is in those screenshots.
Title: Re: Survival Horror [puzzle/small/normal]
Post by: Headgrinder on January 27, 2013, 22:04:49
Quote from: egomassive on January 27, 2013, 19:51:48
Well, the incomplete tilesets have some junky looking stuff in them. Oh, why not.

Edit: The level is on a desktop that is not on top of a desk. It's in a closet. So, it'll be awhile before I can upload the level. Try not to anticipate it. Almost everything there is to see is in those screenshots.


Ha!  That sounds like it should be some odd euphemism.  XD