Nifflas' Support Forum

Temporary => Knytt Stories Level Releases => Topic started by: plural on August 14, 2011, 23:13:05

Title: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on August 14, 2011, 23:13:05

This is a level I've been working on for a while and you may have noticed or even played an earlier version a few months ago if you were browsing the archives.

The idea for me was to make a level about secrets but also make it feel complete without having to find them. To that end there are 13 odd endings for the level that can be found by finding secrets or just taking different paths. The level was pretty hard for me at points but because I suck I only labeled it hard. If you notice any parts that are bugged or find a void screen please tell me. If anyone wants to use the custom objects, tilesets, or gradients go ahead. All the music is licensed under creative commons and almost exclusively found on Jamendo. Also there is some cussing so if that offends you then don't play it.

Download:

Version 1.62
dropbox (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/gsfqrtuuoh9wygu/plural - Hypnagogia.knytt.bin)
size=49.31

Old Versions/Updates

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

Version 1.61
mediafire (http://www.mediafire.com/?1wd43rchx93x06u)
megaupload (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SYCYVBDD)
size=49.31 MB

Version 1.61 Update (install like normal and click overwrite when it says the directory already exists)
updates any version of the game to the current version
knyttlevels (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/plural%20-%20Hypnagogia1.61Update.knytt.bin)
mediafire (http://www.mediafire.com/?xarnoevn1o179do)
size=1.04 MB

Version 1.6
mediafire (http://www.mediafire.com/?17b7243v20962rt)
size=49.3 MB

1.51 to 1.6 Update (install like normal and click overwrite when it says that the directory already exists)
updates any previous version of the game to 1.6 version
knyttlevels (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/plural%20-%20Hypnagogia1.6Update.knytt.bin)
mediafire (http://www.mediafire.com/?23x0uqul4g8c4z8)
size = 1.04 MB

Version 1.51
knyttlevels (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/plural%20-%20Hypnagogia1.51.knytt.bin)
mediafire (http://www.mediafire.com/?qbdwl1v9cf83tmk)
size = 49.28 MB

Changelog
Version 1.62 Some of the fixes SergioCornaga mentioned and a few small graphical changes. Also fixes the bug when trying to get the * ending because of the cutscene autosave bug. So, sadly if you get the * ending you have to start a new game but at least now it's possible to get the ending again.
Version 1.61 fixes the problems GrayFace has pointed out in regard to void screens and wallswims (hopefully).
Version 1.6 has a few cosmetic changes and fixes pathing at points where a save point will strand you between a certain ending and that specific save point forcing you to start over if you want to keep playing.


Pictures:
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k274/Fplusone/knytt/Capture.png)

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k274/Fplusone/knytt/Capture1.png)

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k274/Fplusone/knytt/Capture3.png)

(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k274/Fplusone/knytt/Capture4.png)

Have fun.

Old Edit:

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

<-- this doesn't really have a point anymore so I've put it into a spoiler tag, but saved for posterity-->
The original version had a spot that was impassable due to my idiocy. I feel really bad for uploading it to knyttlevels for a third time because I don't want to waste their space but I'm a hypocrite.

Here's a hotfix for those that already downloaded it. It's the map.bin for the revised level. I assume this will fix it by just copy/pasting(I really don't know, I'm not that savvy about the technical aspect). I apologize to anyone who played through to the point where you got stuck and hope it doesn't sour you on the whole thing, but don't blame you if it has.
http://www.mediafire.com/?vamth58eim320d2

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: egomassive on August 15, 2011, 06:00:55

I haven't played your earlier versions. From the screens and the description this looks like a promising level. *downloading*

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: Salmoneous on August 24, 2011, 16:58:29

Got some ending, must be a pretty large level because I didn't reach any of the places in your screenshots.
It was a good enjoyable level, can't point out anything bad besides very small unimportant things.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: sergiocornaga on August 25, 2011, 09:59:22

I'd really like to play this, so hopefully I'll have enough time to soon. You've got one too many ones in your knyttlevels download link!

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: GrayFace on August 25, 2011, 12:37:34

Fantastic level! I got 6 endings so far, but I'm stuck:

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I got to x1015y1004. From there with help of level editor I got to x1010y1006, but at x1009y1006 I die if I try to get through to the left side. I don't see any way to get back to the main part of level in the editor, so this is probably a bug.

Edit: Not a big deal though. The beginning isn't long when you know the shortcuts, so I'm playing on 2nd slot from the beginning. I'm overwhelmed by the huge world and atmosphere.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on August 25, 2011, 21:56:12

Quote from: GrayFace on August 25, 2011, 12:37:34

Fantastic level! I got 6 endings so far, but I'm stuck:

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I got to x1015y1004. From there with help of level editor I got to x1010y1006, but at x1009y1006 I die if I try to get through to the left side. I don't see any way to get back to the main part of level in the editor, so this is probably a bug.

Edit: Not a big deal though. The beginning isn't long when you know the shortcuts, so I'm playing on 2nd slot from the beginning. I'm overwhelmed by the huge world and atmosphere.

Yeah, this is my first level and I sort of built it by just adding more and more to each section but I realize now my mistake because it was something that never came up when testing because I never thought about someone getting an ending and then starting from the last save to look for the next ending.

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

On any point where you jump down the hole with the white squares that (sometimes) kill you, you'll never be able to make it back out unless you're in the part that teleports you to the "mom" ending when you fall to the bottom. Otherwise you can't get out of those areas again which was my fault for not thinking that people would be doing that on a level with many different endings. So apologies for that, I'll fix it soon.

So, I guess this would be a good spot to say that certain paths stop you from being able to find the other endings because you're literally blocked off because in my mind I didn't want people getting stuck in the part of the level that no longer had anything to offer anymore once you passed it. I think I'll just make some warps so that if you come in from left that the ghost blocks won't be there so that you don't get stuck. And Also I'll make a path away from stuck save points so that it doesn't force you to play through again if you don't want to.

I should get around to fixing that in the next few days. I had an update planned with a bunch of foreground custom objects I made only to discover the custom object limit.

Anyway, if you're not finding most of the things from the screenshots above here's some advice that doesn't really spoil anything but how to get to those areas, though might spoil certain parts that you might not want to know the first time through. So this is for anyone who's gotten a couple endings but wants to know how to get to the point where they can see the rest without cracking open the editor:

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

When you fall through the black tower at the end, after the words are scrolling but before you reset to the first fall through the world, you can grab the wall and climb up and be at the beginning of the level again but with the ability to climb. Or just start back at the point from the first wall and go back through the level letting the ghost blocks sort of guide you to a point where you can climb up higher than you could have before.

Quote from: sergiocornaga on August 25, 2011, 09:59:22

I'd really like to play this, so hopefully I'll have enough time to soon. You've got one too many ones in your knyttlevels download link!

Thanks for pointing that out. D'oh.

Edit: I didn't want to double post so I've edited the first post and I'll edit this one too. There's a new version above that fixes the problem Grayface was describing. It also adds a few cosmetic changes throughout the level but it's nothing too drastic.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: GrayFace on August 27, 2011, 13:56:32

Looks like I've finished it. :) While playing in times I felt like the world is endless. It was going on and on and I still had many passages where I haven't gone behind me. Great work!

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I've used editor a few times. To find a way through one maze, then the case I described, then to find the way in the looping screen of * ending (I have been near the dude that tells about the pillar, but missed him), to find ending 6 and also found some other hidden places.
Another situation where you have to restart is the * ending.

Quote from: plural on August 25, 2011, 21:56:12

When you fall through the black tower at the end, after the words are scrolling but before you reset to the first fall through the world, you can grab the wall and climb up and be at the beginning of the level again but with the ability to climb.

But if you don't grab the wall and fall, there's a nasty autosave shift in x988y997 that would take away the opportunity. There are some other autosave shifts that I don't like, like one in x1022y975, it did a bad thing for me once. Overall I don't see a reason for such autosave shifts, save points are always better.
Some small bugs:
x1009y994 - wallswim if you go up.
x1034y954 - you can fall down into a void screen.
x1034y952 - you can climb up into a void screen.
x1040y957/x1040y958 - wallswims at x3 and x21.
x1026y964 - if you jump in the next screen when you fall down you'll find yourself in void screens. There are also void screens to the right and left of x986y975.
x1015y992 - wallswim shift.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on August 27, 2011, 23:47:03

Quote from: GrayFace on August 27, 2011, 13:56:32

Looks like I've finished it. :) While playing in times I felt like the world is endless. It was going on and on and I still had many passages where I haven't gone behind me. Great work!

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

I've used editor a few times. To find a way through one maze, then the case I described, then to find the way in the looping screen of * ending (I have been near the dude that tells about the pillar, but missed him), to find ending 6 and also found some other hidden places.
Another situation where you have to restart is the * ending.

Quote from: plural on August 25, 2011, 21:56:12

When you fall through the black tower at the end, after the words are scrolling but before you reset to the first fall through the world, you can grab the wall and climb up and be at the beginning of the level again but with the ability to climb.

But if you don't grab the wall and fall, there's a nasty autosave shift in x988y997 that would take away the opportunity. There are some other autosave shifts that I don't like, like one in x1022y975, it did a bad thing for me once. Overall I don't see a reason for such autosave shifts, save points are always better.
Some small bugs:
x1009y994 - wallswim if you go up.
x1034y954 - you can fall down into a void screen.
x1034y952 - you can climb up into a void screen.
x1040y957/x1040y958 - wallswims at x3 and x21.
x1026y964 - if you jump in the next screen when you fall down you'll find yourself in void screens. There are also void screens to the right and left of x986y975.
x1015y992 - wallswim shift.

Thank you. I should have asked the people here to playtest the game instead of my friends. I had no idea getting to most of those screens was even possible because I actually tried and the other people didn't report any problems. I am not good at platforming.

About the autosaving shifts though,

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

there is a reason that I have them in the game. (Not counting the * ending one that was a mistake). The first one serves two purposes. Once the shift happens a person could not land straight down, meaning they'd miss the save point and if they died before they found the next one they'd have to start back at the very beginning. Also the second reason is the same for the other autosave shift, it's to direct the player to going in a specific location. The fact that it was troublesome for you in this regard makes me think I did the right thing because that means that if you had noticed that you'd ended up near the beginning of the game that you would have returned to the last save point instead of continuing through the level which means that you might never find the new ghost walls that are the only other way to climb up to the areas that were otherwise unreachable. And the point of the level in my mind is reward people who have the idea to climb up the wall because it's not necessarily important that they are forced or directed to go back to the beginning by climbing up, that's just something they could do if they were quick on their feet or whatever. I don't know...

The second autosave in the walled-in "room" is to force you to actually check the walls. Granted there are only two ways back to the previous parts of the level once you get there and one involves going nearly to the very end of the game but I also can't imagine at this point why you'd want to return to the last save point unless you thought the rooms were impassable, and the point there is to get people to check the rooms and understand that they're not actually trapped inside.

Those are just my thoughts about how I think it should be though. If you could tell me what the bad thing that specific shift did for you once was then I could understand better. Also if other people have the same problems I'll take the autosaves out, but I personally think the game works better with them in it. I could be wrong but I'd want more/other input before changing those things.

If the autosaves bothered anyone else please tell me. I hopefully fixed all the bugs GrayFace found, I'm updating the first post with a new version and a new update.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: GrayFace on August 28, 2011, 17:19:49

Spoiler: (click to show/hide)

The first autosave shift when falling into the black tower is ok, but the second is bad. I went into the tower, grabbed a wall and climbed up to the beginning area. Then I died. Then I decided not to climb and went into the hole. The autosave shift made it impossible to get to the beginning area. The thing with missing save point when falling can be easily solved by placing another save point before the fall in the beginning area.
The house autosave shift was fine the first time, but then I was exploring the level for other endings and decided to check the passage there, because I didn't remember where it takes you. That's when it worked bad.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: Saml on September 03, 2011, 21:19:25

The latest version (from the level archive) has screwed-up media--none of the custom tilesets or gradients are showing up... This basically breaks the whole thing.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: sergiocornaga on September 04, 2011, 03:13:02

Quote from: Saml on September 03, 2011, 21:19:25

The latest version (from the level archive) has screwed-up media--none of the custom tilesets or gradients are showing up... This basically breaks the whole thing.

I still haven't found time to download this yet, but did you possibly download the update version without having an original to install over? Try the 49 MB version if so.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: EarthBound015 on September 13, 2011, 22:53:18

First, I have got to say this is the first level I have played since forever ago.  Now, with that said:

This is a fantastic level.  I really love the atmosphere of everything and every place.  So much to see, so much to do.  I love all the choices you give with direction.  I ended up getting ending 7.  Good job, m'friend!

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: sergiocornaga on September 24, 2011, 15:49:34

Played from start to ending 2/13. Was hoping to be done with this in a single session, but this level is so vast that that's clearly impossible! Great stuff, but not so convenient for someone with as little free time as I have right now. :(

This level is quite amazing. The 'icy' environment is my favourite so far, I would even go so far to say that it's one of the most interesting I've ever encountered in games overall.

Spoiler: Here's a list of bugs I've found so far: (click to show/hide)

x1004y1000 - Wallswim when climbing down.
x1002y1004 - Wallswim when climbing up. Also, extremely easy to kill self by jumping into laser on above screen.
x1002y1005 - Wallswims when jumping into blocks on above screen.
x998y1005 - Invisible wall! (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v229/sergiocornaga/daknyttwall.png) Probably an issue with tileset 8 which can be resolved by swapping the tile at x12y8 for the one used for other corners in the room.
x1005y1002 - An unneeded tile on layer 2 causes a red pixel to appear in the wall. Obliterate it!
x1000y999 - Black wall tile in centre of room. Mistake?

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on September 25, 2011, 11:53:06

I've updated again and hid older versions in spoilers to hopefully lessen confusion. Sadly trying to fix the stranding that was happening in the original version of the game I turned off the autosave that happens after a cutscene but I forgot that it just sends you back to where you saved before if you don't turn the autosave on. So yeah, the final ending is unreachable if you don't have the current version or the oldest version. Apologies.

Anyway, I'm rambling. That lone layer 3 block was supposed to be a hidden shortcut in an earlier version but I changed the level around it and forgot about the block. I feel like I need to start adding credit for people that are pointing all these things out to me, it's thoroughly embarrassing.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: egomassive on September 26, 2011, 03:18:04

It's a huge level. It's not surprising that bugs are showing up. It's recommended that levels be beta tested before official release to help prevent this, but test all you want, someone's bound to find bugs anyway.

I finally started playing this level yesterday, only found about five endings. It figures that a new release came out the very next day. Hopefully, it will help me find the rest of the endings. So far I have to say I really liked the "hot lights", a clever combination of default tilesets and objects that I haven't seen before. Made some of the best action in the level so far in my opinion. I also like the text near the save points, takes the edge off dying a little. Great writing on the endings too, haven't found seen one yet that didn't work cleverly with the level's intro and exploration. With all the praise I'm giving you I guess I should criticize. The hidden passages are annoying. Many of them have no indication of their being there, not even with the detector equipped. Some of the jumping takes a little too much precision for my taste. The mazes where you can't see the walls, no thanks. I would have stopped playing after one or 2 rounds if it weren't for the great endings.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on September 26, 2011, 04:54:57

Quote from: egomassive on September 26, 2011, 03:18:04

It's a huge level. It's not surprising that bugs are showing up. It's recommended that levels be beta tested before official release to help prevent this, but test all you want, someone's bound to find bugs anyway.

I finally started playing this level yesterday, only found about five endings. It figures that a new release came out the very next day. Hopefully, it will help me find the rest of the endings. So far I have to say I really liked the "hot lights", a clever combination of default tilesets and objects that I haven't seen before. Made some of the best action in the level so far in my opinion. I also like the text near the save points, takes the edge off dying a little. Great writing on the endings too, haven't found seen one yet that didn't work cleverly with the level's intro and exploration. With all the praise I'm giving you I guess I should criticize. The hidden passages are annoying. Many of them have no indication of their being there, not even with the detector equipped. Some of the jumping takes a little too much precision for my taste. The mazes where you can't see the walls, no thanks. I would have stopped playing after one or 2 rounds if it weren't for the great endings.

I actually didn't understand what the blue detect target did until I finished making the level, I should go through and add it for hidden passages, though it's hard for me to know if I should or not in many cases. A lot of the secrets aren't really meant to be found the first time you go through and a lot of the secrets don't really add or effect anything other than just reward someone for looking for them. I do agree that for places that only have one possible entrance that is a secret, I should add in blue detect targets though. Also, it occurs to me now that this would make the mazes less only guesswork.

My problem is the point of the level is that there are places built that the player has no idea to go to but wants to check and see if it's possible to do it. For example, in Super Metroid when you figure out you can bomb jump and then, I think most of us, wanted to see what would happen if we bomb jumped at the opening with the open sky to try to see if there was something above that area. I was disappointed when you just hit an invisible ceiling. So that's kind of what this level stems from, what if you bomb jumped up there and there was a whole huge layer of the level above everything that was just hidden. I don't want to necessarily prevent a person from seeing the level but I also want it to be their idea to explore it (which is also my problem with removing the autosave shift from the repeating tower).

The parts that you've played are probably only the original level I made before I thought that I should add an entirely new thing on top of it that nobody will probably see but to me, it's much more in line with what I want from a game to plan to have a person only see 25% of the game's content if they play through averagely/once. This means that someone who gives more will get more out of it and people will usually have differing experiences.

So when people talk about the game and say that the spaceship was their favorite part or the floating ocean, someone else can say, what the hell? Floating ocean? Where was that?

If I put blue targets where every secret was then the first secret after you get the detector would be exactly where everyone goes to and so on with every other secret. I just don't know how to find a happy medium with that kind of thing after the player gets the detector.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: egomassive on September 26, 2011, 11:37:50

^: Well, I'm not saying you should make everything obvious once the detector has been found. What I'm saying is that checking every tile of every wall to make sure it's really solid isn't my Idea of a good time. There are aspects of how you hid things that work well. For example each ending tells you how many endings there are total, lets me know there's more to look for. Also, I've seen a lot of stuff I haven't been able to get to yet, like the spaceship. In theory, this gives me a direction to look in without giving me the solution. It would probably be a non-issue if KS had a map like Metroid.

Don't go remaking Hypnagogia on my account though. I actually am enjoying it as is. There was so much I liked about it that when I posted before I felt like I was making it out to be the level of the year. I didn't want to give readers the wrong impression, hence criticism. This level shows that you have good ideas as a game designer, but there's room for improvement. Looking forward to your next level.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: GrayFace on September 26, 2011, 16:12:37

You shouldn't be embarrassed about the bugs, especially ones as minor as wallswims or out-of-place tiles. Even in my small Ball Tutorial level I missed 2 reachable voids. Yours is one of the very best levels I've played.

Spoiler: hidden passages (click to show/hide)

A hidden passage that needs some indication is the one leading to ending 6, though I can't think of how the indication can be made. Here's my idea: A ghostly passage indicator in it (the passage itself should stay open without the Eye). Some hidden passage (indicated by detector) would warp player from some other far away place to x1006y1002 where he would appear at x10y0, with ghostly passage there. A ghostly block would be at x11y1.
Paths around x1015y1005 would be good with detector indication.
x1031y964 - I checked the passage under the ceiling, but missed the way up by jumping at a wrong place (because when you stand right next to the solid tile and jump you don't do it).

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on December 06, 2013, 02:22:39

I've just been informed that the links in the original post are dead. Right now my version of the level is filled with half-finished things I gave up on adding so I'm putting the call out to anyone who has the final version of the level in this thread to re-upload it for me and post it here (or PM it to me). I'll put it on my dropbox and replace the original post's links with that. I promise I'm being better at backing up older versions/completed versions of levels in the future. Thank you anyone who can help out.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: Widget on December 06, 2013, 05:57:03

Hypnagogia (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=4965.0) (v1.62) by plural

Let me know if there are any problems with it.

Since the level is once again available from plural, in the OP (http://nifflas.lpchip.nl/index.php?topic=4965.0), I've deleted it from my box account.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on December 06, 2013, 07:08:01

It appears to work fine for me, thank you very much. The original post will be edited with a working link now.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: cman on July 14, 2017, 20:36:58

Hi Plural, I would like to play this level! would you mind re-uploading the last version?

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: StraightFlame on July 14, 2017, 23:57:59

Just so you know: Version 1.61 is still up on Knyttlevels. (http://knyttlevels.com/levels/plural%20-%20Hypnagogia1.61Update.knytt.bin)

It's not 1.62, but it's something.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on July 15, 2017, 02:19:57

Yeah, I'm sorry guys but I actually don't have 1.62 anymore. I think I must have lost it during my many reformats of my pc. (I think I also accidentally deleted Hypnagogia from my dropbox when trying to delete the old version of Harlow, damn H's). I think I'll just go through and make the edits I mentioned in the OP post again and just reupload that. Shouldn't take too long, I'll edit this post when I'm done.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: SilasMann on July 15, 2017, 03:45:27

Isn't there a "deleted items" tab in Dropbox that you can restore files from?

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: sergiocornaga on July 15, 2017, 06:35:12

Quote from: SilasMann on July 15, 2017, 03:45:27

Isn't there a "deleted items" tab in Dropbox that you can restore files from?

Yeah, have a look here (https://www.dropbox.com/deleted_files) if you haven't already, plural. In the meantime I'm also going to check a few old computers and hard drives for version 1.62.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: plural on July 15, 2017, 07:25:54

Thanks, sergio. I didn't know they backed up people being stupid enough to delete their own files. I actually uploaded the version I had (which may or may not be 1.62, I actually don't know now that I'm looking at it.) and because there was another version uploaded it said I had no deleted files but I was able to just restore the file by reverting it back to previous versions.

The initial post dropbox link is working and 1.62 again. All is well, the thread can, hopefully, rest in peace once again.

Title: Re: [Misc/Challenge][Hard] Hypnagogia
Post by: Katrtlen on September 09, 2017, 13:29:56

What's Song23.ogg song name? Im really enjoying it everytime i play this map.